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todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Todd Bentley

Brothers, listen.
www.freshfire.ca

Under the "Listen NOw" section listen to "Increase the Anointing". Enough talk i think... at least for now.

 2003/5/22 16:07Profile
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 Re: Todd Bentley

I have heard a few fishy things about this guy hehe but I will listen to some of that audio first before I post comments!


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/5/24 1:03Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

I remember Todd bentely better now! I watched a video sermon by him at the Toronto Airport fellowship!.. hmm well he is a "revivalist" or so it says on his website.

Todd seems intresting, he is quite zealous. but he uses alot of charismatic catch phrases 'anointing' etc.

I personally started the WRT Books ministry which I have started SermonIndex to combat the false teachings and doctrines in Christianity. I believe that people could take alot of good things from todd's messages but sadly I believe that he is not teaching the truth as it is in Jesus. If you listen to sermons by Leonard Ravenhill where he talks about the same topics, has the same zeal, but you will notice a drastic difference in content of scriptures and direction in his preaching.

I would love to discuss this more please reply to this post.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/5/24 1:21Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

You are really making me sad now. What's with the attitude? you come across so negative, unloving, unmerciful.

you make it sound wrong to use "charismatic catchphrases [like] 'anointing', etc." And you seem to be lifting up Leonard Ravenhill above an apporpriate level. why do you compare the two as if they are competitors? The spirit behind what you said seems to be "my dad is stronger that you dad" (i don't know if that's a popular phrase in Canada). It's like, "My dad can say the same things with the same zeal and but he does it even better."

Well, even if i did believe that about these two, i would expect Ravenhill to be better after 70 years of practice. right?

and it just so happens that i heard Ravenhill use the term "anointing" many times in the last sermon i listened to. and in the last sermon i heard todd give he probably used about, no exaggeration, 30-35 Bible references in his one teaching. in fact, it is my opinion, as best as i can tell at this point, that todd bentley uses at least as much if not more bible references than Ravenhill, on average. that is my rough estimate from what i have heard. now if you immediately doubt the truth of that, why?

i would like to know how many teachings you have heard of Todd Bentley's. this isn't even about defending the man, it's about confronting your judgements. please give me a number. because you make some very general statements about the man when you say:

Quote:
"Todd seems intresting, he is quite zealous. but he uses alot of charismatic catch phrases 'anointing' etc."

Quote:
"I believe that people could take alot of good things from todd's messages but sadly I believe that he is not teaching the truth as it is in Jesus."

If you only heard that one video sermon, don't you think you are coming to some rash and unjust judgements and conclusions?

Especially i think you need to defend that last statement. "sadly I believe that he is not teaching the truth as it is in Jesus." That is a very powerful statement to make. what makes you think that? what is "the truth as it is in Jesus?" What do you mean by that?

 2003/6/4 1:30Profile
Jason
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Joined: 2003/3/15
Posts: 138
Tallahassee, FL, USA

 Re: Todd Bentley

I have to agree with Greg here also; Bentley has associated himself in large part with TACF, Bob Jones, Benny Hinn, and others who have little or no credibility. He may be a good man, but unfortunately his message has been tainted by his "diamond dust manifestations" (similar to the "gold dust") and Joel's Army (as in the modern Rick Joyner, Paul Cain variation) teachings.

 2003/6/4 13:22Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Jason,
you make some big general claims as well. and you throw around names fast.
i know nothing about the last things you mention:
"diamond dust manifestations" (similar to the "gold dust") and Joel's Army (as in the modern Rick Joyner, Paul Cain variation) teachings."

but here's some honest truth for you. i was just at a miracles conference (my first one) in northern california that featured Todd Bentley and Mahesh Chavda. It was wonderful.

i have never before in my life heard about this diamond dust thing or gold dust but i tell you the truth, there was either diamond or gold dust falling from Mahesh as he spoke. i saw it with my own eyes. it wasn't there when he began but at times it was all over him. how can i not believe? why would i assume it's a farce, a fake? why not just believe?

i saw no dust on Todd Bentley and he didn't even mention it. i only say that because i think he would mention it if it was a big deal to him. i think these people you mention probably just think it's a neat thing that God is doing but it's not a main focus, right? why do you think it's not for real?

so now i ask you, Jason, since you agree with Greg, what is "the truth as it is in Jesus?"

i also would like to know how you can say that thost first three things you mentioned have little or no credibility. why do say that?

 2003/6/4 14:18Profile
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Quote:
i have never before in my life heard about this diamond dust thing or gold dust but i tell you the truth, there was either diamond or gold dust falling from Mahesh as he spoke. i saw it with my own eyes. it wasn't there when he began but at times it was all over him. how can i not believe? why would i assume it's a farce, a fake? why not just believe?


Man, thats scary stuff are you for real? think about it brother you saw gold dust falling from his hair and body appearing from nowhere!! :-o

Why didnt this happen to ravenhill? or to Tozer? or even to the apostles or Jesus the Christ?

Why doesnt the bible mention this manifestation?

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons." - 1 Timothy 4:1

"and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people." - Matthew 24:11

"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles [b]to deceive even the elect - if that were possible[/b]" - Matthew 24:24

Man, that last verse really makes me sad, even the elect of God can be decieved!!! just because you see it with your eyes and it looks good doesnt mean its good. Please pray hard about this brother, I am not casting stones but just asking you to take heed to the times.


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 2003/6/6 23:52Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
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 Re:

I know it sounds crazy and that kind of thing used to scare me too.
confession time:
I really began to care about Christianity and my relationship with God about 2 years ago. prior to that, i really didn't care enough to dig in or press in at all to the things of God.
I began attending the local Calvary Chapel because the college pastor really was connecting with me and everyone said they are "safe". THey meant that because at calvary chapel they stick to the Bible hard core, and that's great. For about a year i got super involved with all the calvary chapel stuff, i jumped on the bandwagon. i knew my heart was afer God and the truth and the arguments all made sense.

i remember the time this college pastor that i admired and looked up to so much boldly declared to me in private "Benny HInn is a false prohpet, and a liar!!!"

i began to get really interested in false prophets and what is correct doctrine, etc. i spent countless hours on the internet looking at all the things that made people believe they are false and horrible and wolves in sheep clothing, prosperity gospel. you name the category, i was on it. "toronto blessing", "Brownsville", "holy laughter", etc. I watched the video clips and studied the quotes. i was so convinced in my heart that all this stuff was evil and wrong.

the same questions raised in my head:
Why isn't this stuff in the bible? but the bible says God is not the author of confusion, etc. i heard the calvary chapel arguments and the others. and my heart continued to grow harder and harder towards these people. i really think i hated them.

then one day i had a crisis. as i was researching stuff, i realized some things. first, i realized mighty men of God from the past (or men whom God used mightily) often believed completely different (often contradictory) things about God. how could that be? if they really knew God, wouldn't He have told them the truth?

for instance, look at Finney and Jonathan Edwards. They had completely differnt and contradictory understandings about God, yet God used both of them in mighty ways. Or, since we all know Ravenhill fairly well it seems, look at Wesley and Edwards... same thing applies. And yet GOd used all of these men so powerfully.

And i love how ravenhill refers to all of these men in his messages. that's one of the main things that drew me to him. i believe he symbolized the end of an era and the beginning of a new one. why? because he advocated an end to the religious spirit and yet placed such great emphasis on the Bible and a holy life.

You can kind of watch the progression over time through these people. Tozer was more religious, then Ravenhill less.

in one of ravenhill's sermons i am 99% sure i heard him mention kathryn khulman and how powerful the meeting was that he went to. see, here's the key, he didn't make it a big deal or decided to be the doctrine police, he just said the truth about what he experienced. the problem with doctine police, for the most part, is that they feel so sure they are right and that anything else is wrong. the reason i can't buy that is because such great men of God believed so many contradictory doctrines. If you study the primitive church, augustine, luther, wesley, finney, edwards, spurgeon, moody, tozer, ravenhill, etc. this will become obvious.

and isn't it interesting that ravenhill poured his life out for God and in prayer for revival, and that in the same year he died, God came to toronto. you (whomever is reading this) may not believe that toronto was of God, and you are entitled to your opinion, but if the reason you believe that is because of what you have researched on the internet or seen on t.v., that's sad. but if you take the next step and openly cut down these people and their ministries, and take part in the criticism, then you are being unjust and unrighteous i believe. it's one thing to have your opinion, it's another to express it openly and affect other people's perceptions because of it.

religious people have always taken offense when God shakes up the mold and the Holy SPirit is moving. John the baptist was offensive, so was Jesus and the disciples. and it just so happens so was ravenhill to most.

concerning the "new movement" that's going on:
why aren't some of these manifestations in the BIble? i don't know. we live in a very different time, things have changed since then i think. perhaps God just wanted to bless these people in this way for His own reasons. who are we to judge (by the flesh)? i think it's fair to discuss doctrinal differences and all that, but it's about your attitude and heart towards it all. if you're scared, it's hard to be fair minded about things. If you are indifferent to what the truth is (meaning, you don't care what it is, you just want to know it) and just want whatever it is or looks like, then you can find it.

here's the other thing that caused my crisis. i realized how unfair, unjust, and especially unloving i had been towards all of these things and people. God basically told me to get a life and to shut my big mouth about it all. why did i care so much and spend so much of my time and life worrying about it? what about me? how am i experiencing God? i had fallen into the trap i see many people in (mostly because they are scared) of unrighteous judgement.

it can make a person feel significant to think they are "defending the faith." it's so interesting how half the church thinks they have the gift of discernment and yet these same people don't have any other gifts. the attitude is like "i know God and so i can trust my instincts because God would not let me feel this way about it if it were true."

a spiritual mentor of mine gave the best advice at that time. she basically told me to keep the main thing the main thing. to focus on Jesus and things will fall into proper perspective. so when i did that, God shut my mouth and opened my heart.

that doesn't mean that i buy everything and believe everything that is involved with this stuff. but i am trying to be fair minded about it. that's why i always ask people why? why do you think it's fake? because it's not in the bible? ok, well, let's discuss that. etc.

these things take time i think. at least it has for me. so please, let's discuss these things fairly. i can handle talking about these things now after about a year of keeping it to myself. but i feel like i have learned so much.

although i get sad about some attitudes, i still am getting a lot out of these discussions and appreciate everyone's input. sorry about the length of this post.

 2003/6/7 13:48Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:
look at Finney and Jonathan Edwards. They had completely differnt and contradictory understandings about God, yet God used both of them in mighty ways. Or, since we all know Ravenhill fairly well it seems, look at Wesley and Edwards... same thing applies. And yet GOd used all of these men so powerfully.



God also used Assyria and Babylon to accomplish His will, did He not? Just because God uses you, does not mean you have His approval. As all these men (to my knowledge) frequently said, that revival is totally about a soverign move of God. God converted sinners, not Wesley, nor Finney, nor anybody else.

And btw, I think Ravenhill is sometimes error for exorting some of these men as great men of God. He seems a little pragmatic. Or in otherwords he measured the success of these individuals based upon the fact they attracted people in droves and had just as many converts. Wesley's "second work of grace" of sanctification is just flat out error. 2 Peter 1 makes it abundantly clear that we have all we need to live a godly life in Christ as born again Christians. We need no secondary sanctification (unless one is refering to the resurrected and glorified body).

Though, all of this is not to say that we should ignore the times these individuals were obviously faithful to God in what they did and in what they said. However, I think we tend to take too lightly the drastic contrast in the doctrines preached by all these men- as if it were a nonissue. Wesley and all these men will have to give an account to God one day for everyword they have said, and all I can say is that I'm glad I am not currently in their shoes.

Maybe it would be good for us to rethink exactly what a true move of God is. As the Scriptures say, God causes it to rain on the just and unjust alike. We should not confuse this rain as divine approval.

Quote:
why aren't some of these manifestations in the BIble? i don't know.



Concerning extra-biblical "manifestations," what do you think the various people of the Bible thought of many of the unique manifestations that occured? I see no rush of men and women in the Scriptures to confirm unique manifestations that they experienced. So why should we?

We should not look at the Bible as a book that declares "The following are appropriate manifestations: x, y, z." Maybe instead of interpreting the Bible as giving a list of appropriate manifestations, we should look at it as telling us "there are times where God will manifest Himself in a way previously unknown to history." Though, that is not to say God has not given us ways to test these manifestations.


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Jimmy H

 2003/6/7 16:32Profile
Maria
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Joined: 2003/6/8
Posts: 77
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 Re:

Hey everyone! I'm new on this site and have been reading through this particular conversation and thought I'd add a bit. (I probably won't be on very often as I am very busy, but for what it's worth.)

None of us "have it all" but what we do have is the Bible. So, while I do not think that this post will necessarily change anyone's doctrine, I pray, at least, that those reading will be encouraged to search the scriptures and discern between truth and error.

Quoting Todd:
"Especially i think you need to defend that last statement. 'sadly I believe that he is not teaching the truth as it is in Jesus.' That is a very powerful statement to make. what makes you think that? what is 'the truth as it is in Jesus?' What do you mean by that?"

First of all, let me say (and I do say this in love) that I was blown away that you so openly attacked others in the spirit in which you did--it seems that everything you accused them of doing, you were doing yourself.

If I am correct, what Jason and the webmaster were referring to was this passage:

"So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE OF YOU WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. BE ANGRY, AND YET DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity." Ephesians 4:17-27

As you can see, Mr. Webmaster and Jason were merely quoting scripture (by the way, you are right about one thing! It IS a "very powerful statement." PAUL is the one who originally said it.)

To answer your question, ("'the truth as it is in Jesus?' What do you mean by that?") I will again use scripture:

"If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment. For we have brought nothing into the world, so we cannot take anything out of it either. If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses." 1 Timothy 6:3-12

First of all, let us note that the ones whom GOD considers conceited are those who do not conform to a doctrine of godliness -- NOT those who test and examine everything with scripture.

("Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." Acts 17:11 )

"Truth as it is in Jesus" :

We are to "lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth." Eph 4:22-24

We are to walk "in the light as He Himself is in the Light" (See 1 John 1:5-7) and be "crucified with Christ" (See Galatians 2:20) and no longer live for ourselves or the lusts of this world.

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you." Titus 2:11-15

Luke 1:74-75 says that Jesus came to: "rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear in holiness and righteousness before him all our days."

THIS is the Gospel that must be preached. It must not be a "showy" Gospel, or one that appeals to the lusts of the flesh. It must bring a "Godly sorrow" that produces repentance. (See 2 Corinthians 7:10)

Mr. Todd - you mentioned that God told you to keep your mouth shut and mind your own business (I'm paraphrasing). That may be true, but I have a hard time believing God told you to stop using discernment! (Also, if He did indeed tell you this, you should probably be obedient and not attack others as you have been.)

Consider what Jesus said to the church in Revelation: "I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false." Revelation 2:2

And what does John say?

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1

Matthew 24 describes what Jesus Himself said to His disciples:

Matthew 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

"And Jesus answered and said to them, "SEE TO IT THAT NO ONE MISLEADS YOU; For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many...

...Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another...

MANY FALSE PROPHETS WILL ARISE AND MISLEAD MANY; Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved...

23 "Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance.

"So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be...42 Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming." (Matthew 24)

The bible makes it very clear that we must be alert and test EVERYTHING!

"Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. BUT EXAMINE EVERYTHING CAREFULLY; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil." 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22

"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. BUT false prophets also arose among the people, JUST AS THERE WILL ALSO be false teachers AMONG YOU, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, AND BECAUSE OF THEM THE WAY OF THE TRUTH WILL BE MALIGNED; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep." 2 Peter 1:20-2:1-3

It is VERY DANGEROUS to open yourself up to anything - except TRUTH AS IT IS IN JESUS! And the only way that we can find this truth is by looking to HIM and not to men - no matter how great the "manifestation" and "healing's."

"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds." 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

If we truly love the Lord, our heart's cry will be:

"Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me and know my anxious thoughts; And see if there be any hurtful way in me, And lead me in the everlasting way." Psalm 139:23-24

"Teach me good discernment and knowledge, for I believe in Your commandments." Psalms 119:66

"Make me know Your ways, O LORD; Teach me Your paths. Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation; For You I wait all the day." Psalms 25:4-5

If God did not want us to scrutinize those who claim to be ministers of His Word, than He wouldn't have emphasized so strongly that we do.

I don't have much time, so I'll leave you with this:

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Thessalonians 2:7-14

Jesus, may we all lay aside our pride and submit ourselves to YOUR Word and YOUR way.

In Jesus,

Maria

P.S.
I believe that Jason and Mr. Webmaster and right on with their statements, and I recognize them to be operating in a spirit of Love, not judgement.


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Stephanie

 2003/6/9 10:14Profile





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