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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Views changing on the War in Heaven

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Angyl
Member



Joined: 2005/1/26
Posts: 153


 Views changing on the War in Heaven

Help.

I'd always been raised/led to believe that the War in Heaven when satan is cast out is a thing of the past...happened before man was created 'n all.

Now, however after studying Revelation with my church (and I'm reading ahead so I haven't heard my pastor's take on this yet)...

[b]I don't think that war has happened yet![/b]

There are clues throughout scripture that attest to that idea...like for one, we're told repeatedly in the Bible that Satan has access to the throne of God (specifically Job 1). If there was war and he was kicked out, why is he still accusing the bretheren before God?

Also, the Angel in revelation..AFTER this war is described flies through the heavens and shouts woe to the earth, because Satan has come down to you and he knows he has just a little time left...

this during the tribulation...

right before he takes over the A.C. personally.

What/Where and what support is there for the theory that this War where Satan and a third were cast out happened before time??

 2005/4/8 17:45Profile
Taximan
Member



Joined: 2005/4/6
Posts: 15
Southampton, U.K.

 Re: Views changing on the War in Heaven

Strange as it might sound I was having this very conversation on another message board earlier today! :-?
Like you, I had thought it was a thing of the past, and to be honest never even questioned it. However, today someone just threw it into a conversation just as matter of factly, that they thought it was a thing yet to happen.

I haven't yet made my mind up one way or the other, yet must admit the argument I heard in favour of this notion has definately made me think. I know that the Bible descibes the devil as the prince of the air, prince of Persia, prowling the earth like a roaring lion etc. But it also clearly links him with the heavenly realms as in the book of Job, and perhaps in Daniel when Michael talks of being prevented coming to Daniels aid for a while by the devil and his cohorts.

Yet to be honest even if he and his own have not yet been cast down from heaven permanently yet, I think they will always be found in a more active role meddling in peoples lives on this earth, rather than staying in heaven trying to convince God to change His mind about things! :-P

One vague notion I have if this is still to happen is as follows, but please note this is just purely my own fleshly imagination:

What about if after the Rapture at some point, the devil and his demons are cast down from heaven permanently, but then are forced to find their own fleshly temples so to speak. (A little like the demons Jesus cast out of the man in the tombs. When they either had to go pemanently into hell, or into the pigs.) If the devil possessed the person he has been priming to be the anti-christ, and the demons all moved into their new "homes" too, don't you think that could create the atmosphere described in the book of Revelation, rather quickly? Imagine a world minus the Body of Christ, and with pretty much all world leaders being demon possessed!! Talk about chaos!!

Anyway, on that happy note I'm off too work! :-P


God bless,

John. :-D


_________________
John Dunning

 2005/4/8 18:14Profile









 Re: Views changing on the War in Heaven

One day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is like one day unto the LORD.

Now if that be true for the LORD, what is satan's time table like when it says, "he hath but a little while"?

Does a "little while" mean 2000 years or more down the road or does it mean just what it is implying?

Karl

 2005/4/8 22:16
Angyl
Member



Joined: 2005/1/26
Posts: 153


 Re:

God promised Israel that they would receive redemption from Babylon, Egypt, and a host of other captors shortly, he didn't mean a thousand years OR a day.

Many people tend to misunderstand how God interprets time. He is [b]NOT[/b] a linear being, trapped in it as we are, rather he spans all of time [b]S-I-M-U-L-T-A-N-E-O-U-S-Y[/b]

Right now while God is watching and loving you, he is Creating the world, Punishing Adam and Eve, sending fire from Heaven at Elijah's request, telling Jesus to go to earth and be born performing the rapture AND DEFEATING SATAN AT ARMAGEDDON.

He is everywhere and in all times ALL the time.

Ever stop to think that maybe God is answering a prayer you will have in the future and that's why he's denying something you're praying for today?

(Ever think "Boy am I glad what I wanted to happen DIDN'T happen...")?

At any rate, I digress, sort of. God is as capable of saying one day, a long while, a little while, or a thousand years as we are.

 2005/4/8 23:58Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

it seems to me that these angels and the devil were cast out shortly after adam was deceived in the garden. The devil did have access to heaven for a time, and I'm unsure if he still is able to go before God. When you read in Job he tells God that he has been roaming the earth and has seen job and wants to test him. If those angels were still in heaven,what would they be doing? The enemy knows that his time is short, perhaps in comparison to eternity maybe? God has determined the time before the enemy's judgement, and it is described as short, now short in terms of the spirit is relative, it is as long as God wants it to be.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/4/9 0:03Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Angyl, I never thought about that...time is God's toy and He is not bound by it as we are.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/4/9 0:17Profile
Taximan
Member



Joined: 2005/4/6
Posts: 15
Southampton, U.K.

 Re:

Good call Angyl.

I like to think of it as God being an artist painting a magnificent painting, and we are all just part of that painting.

He sees the finished article already, while we are the pigment He is using to create it.


_________________
John Dunning

 2005/4/9 7:46Profile









 Re: God time

Angyl wrote:

Quote:
God is as capable of saying one day, a long while, a little while, or a thousand years as we are.



I agree 100% with your reply.

However, what if God changes that time and shortens for all time?

I have a scripture that points in that direction, but I want to see if anyone sees it first.

Karl

 2005/4/9 14:26









 Re: Satan being caast out

Ironman wrote:

Quote:
The devil did have access to heaven for a time, and I'm unsure if he still is able to go before God



When Christ started preaching the kingdom of God and healing the sick and casting out devils, he saw Satan fall out of heaven unto the earth.

I know that no one believes this but I will say it anyway, Micheal and his angels were fighting with Satan with his angels at this time and they were cast out.

The book of Revelation is a "Revelation of Jesus Christ", the Angel told John to write what you have seen (past tense) what is (present) and what is to come (future).

This passage of scripture in Revelation 12:7 was referring to the time when Christ came with the message of the Kingdom.

"7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

If you notice verse 10, if the salvation, strength, and the kingdom of God is still in the future then what kind of salvation do we have now? The joy of the LORD is our strength, so what Joy do we have now?, and if the kingdom of God is still in the future, then what kingdom are we taking by force? and also pressing INTO it? and if all these things are still in our future then what holy Spirit did we receive because it says, "The kingdom of God is not meat and drink but righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost".

I know the context of this chapter, but I am lifting these verses out to show an example of the topic we are discussing.

I look at the book of Revelation as the Acts of Jesus Christ or His Chronoicles, His Triumphant Victories. It's a revealing of Who He is, hence "The Revelation of Jesus Christ".

Karl

 2005/4/9 14:53
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: Views changing on the War in Heaven

Had similar experiences lately. Will try to present new veiws, with limited time available. (Please don't stone me, it might be that I've failed in clarification:-)).

Quote:

Gen 1:1-4 (KJV)
(1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
(2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
(3) And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
(4) And God saw the light, that it was good: And God divided the light from the darkness: and God divided the light from the darkness.


"..God created.." - God firstly created a sepatation between Himself and His creation.

"..the heaven and the earth." - God divided the creation into heaven and earth.

"..darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face.." - Earth was dark on it's face. God dwelt over the face of the earth as the Holy Spirit (note: God is light)
Distinction made between spiritual light, and physical and spiritual darkness.

"..God said, Let there be light.." - Who delivered the light at God's command? Is it a coincidence that "Lucifer" means "light bearer"? (Note: I'm not suggesting that Lucifer is the light, or that Satan is good)

"..God divided the light from the darkness." - by the apearance of "light" in the world, God divided what was physical and spiritual darkness, into physical light, and darkness.

This means that there are two sources of light. The Holy Spirit (spiritual light, that walks "not by sight"), and physical light. (Note: Physical light isn't evil, it is good. - "..And God saw the light, that it was good..").

The implication here is that Lucifer serves a purpose in the Kingdom of God, by presenting us with a choice, of which we should choose to "walk by faith, and not by sight". Note also that the "light" that appeared at God's command, preceded the "light source" (Gen 1:16-18).

Now skip forward to the garden. Here the choice between spiritual light (life) and physical light (knowledge of good and evil) takes on physical form, as two trees. Now Lucifer comes in the form of a serpent to attempt to guide man to his light.
Here's where the whole thing gets tricky, in that if this is true than Lucifer would have been amoral, until Eve succumbed to his temptation, at which point he became the "god of this world".

If this is the case, then the point isn't one of satan being cast out of heaven, but one of him being dethroned as the "prince of the powers of the air".

Another potential implication of these conclusions is that our glorifying resulting in our replacement of satanic powers, that reflect God's glory on earth (spiritual light), rather than breeding humanistic rebellion in man kind (physical light). In this senario, we are the "ten thousands of saints" that Enoch saw coming with the Lord (Jude 14). Maybe this is "ruling and reigning with Jesus".


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2005/4/10 9:22Profile





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