| Poster | Thread | AbideinHim
Member
Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 5185
Louisiana
| | Re: | | Brother, I am not disputing that there was much healing in the Old Testament, but even the scripture that you referred to (Numbers 21:6-9) is referring to the cross.
It is important to understand the atonement of Jesus Christ. Just as He bore our sins, He took our sicknesses and diseases away. The forgiveness of sin and the healing of disease are all in the atonement. God had provision for sin before the cross, but the blood of bulls and goats only covered sin, and pointed to the blood of Jesus that would purge the conscience of all sin.
Mike
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Mike
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|  2014/3/18 21:18 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Brother Mike,
I think you misunderstood me from the beginning. I never said that physical healing was not part of the atonement. I hope that is sufficient for you. And yes, that is precisely why I gave Num 21:6, because it refers to the cross.
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| | 2014/3/18 23:12 | | Sidewalk
Member
Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego
| | Re: healing | | Healing
One of the names of God is Jehovah Rapha, "God is my Healer." This comes to us from the Old Testament, and it may be useful to look for a moment at some of the healing teaching there. Jesus was certainly familiar with all of this as He proceeded through the unprecedented series of miracles we find in the New Testament.
When the Israelites were called from Egypt, they were given amazing instructions for cleaning and diet that were designed with God's knowledge of microbes and body chemistry. Animals were designated clean and unclean, washing water was to be running as a stream, menstruating women were off limits to the germ infested male equipment I do not wish to discuss.
The insanely filthy practices of the Egyptians were to be totally left behind, God's promise to Moses and the people was that none of their diseases would be on the Israelites as they left the land and the Egyptian culture. This was the context of Jehovah Rapha, that healing would come through obedience to the principles of living above personal and community pollution.
Yet there were a few other incidents of note in the realm of healing unrelated to the ceremonial practices. One was the healing of Naaman the Syrian King's General who was forced to humble himself to receive healing at the command of Elisha. A great story for some healing meditation, with the connected story of greedy Gehazi being struck with leprosy also at the word of Elisha.
Another is the story of King Hezekiah who was given 15 additional years to live when he whined about his illness. He was healed- but unable to be grateful for the blessing. More good instruction about healing from the Word!
And my last example is Asa. He was not healed, but the story in II Chronicles suggests that his pride blocked healing he may have received for the "disease in his feet." Having started well in his reign, he was distracted and departed from his faith, embittered against God, and sought help only from human physicians. His healing, coupled to a humble return to God, was never to be.
I must agree with other wisdom in this thread that healing cannot be a primary goal in our pursuit of the things of God. We see examples of healing where there is gratitude and rejoicing, and others where there is none of that. I have seen many come for healing prayer who are unwilling to repent of disease causing lifestyles. Hard to get enthusiastic praying for people like that. "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God..."
Yet I see man created to live in health and physical comfort. I have studied the physiology of the immune system and other disease fighting biological systems that help us live in health and relative comfort. I am in awe at the brilliance of the human body and it's ability to survive and thrive!
If we would adhere to the teaching of the scriptures, I expect we would all enjoy much better health and be in much less need of healing! Yet we serve a loving and compassionate God who has added to our natural resources a line into His supernatural resources- even commanding us to ask for it.
May our hearts remain humble enough to seek Him for miraculous healing whenever we come to those places where the burden inside cries out, and the words form on our lips- "Be healed in the Name of Jesus!"
He is the healer.
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Tom Cameron
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| | 2014/3/18 23:54 | Profile | a-servant
Member
Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435
| | Re: | | "Be healed in the Name of Jesus!"
He is the healer.
Amen.
Why use more words than that. |
| | 2014/3/19 21:47 | Profile | twayneb
Member
Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
I used to believe just like psalm1 and others and listened to tons of teaching by Andrew wommack (who I really like) and bill Johnson etc but in my experience and those who followed the same teachings with me was that it just didn't work as a practical matter.
Now you might say that it was because I didn't have enough faith or that my understanding was not just right, but that just proves my point. I know of no one who is at that level.
That being said, like I said before I do believe in taking authority and commanding sickness to leave. To me that is just a better and more effective way to pray.
TMK, Interestingly enough, I could tell that you had listened to a lot of Wommack by your posts over the last couple of years. Healing, though provided in the atonement, is not on the same level as salvation. I can be saved and sick, I can die, and I will go to be with the Lord. Sickness is not a mark of a lack of spirituality or that there is something wrong with your life. It is surely not something that will keep you out of heaven. But healing is provided for us.
Matthew 15 and Mark 7 both indicate that healing is for the children, yet those who will put faith in God may also receive. I have seen God heal believers, and I have seen God heal unbelievers as believers prayed for them and ministered to them. It was a great testimony to that unbeliever and I believe it can be what brings them to Christ. Jesus asked the Pharisees which was easier, to SAY thy sins be forgiven thee or to SAY take up thy bed and walk. Since forgiveness is not physically evident, but healing must be physically evident, it is actually easier to SAY thy sins be forgiven thee. But, so that they would be forced to admit that He had power to forgive sins he told the man to rise, take up his bed, and walk.
I have seen people, including myself at one time, downcast because they thought they had been believing God and the healing had not come to pass. But there is a perseverance in faith. I simply walked on through life, believing that God's word was true, and my back problems have faded. I used to visit a chiropractor on an almost monthly basis. I have not been back in 4 or 5 years. It was not instant, but it was ultimate. We need to keep it in perspective. Healing is for us. Healing is provided in the atonement. Yet we are not perfect in our faith. We grow in our faith, in our knowledge of the word day by day.
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Travis
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| | 2014/3/20 10:38 | Profile | twayneb
Member
Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Quote:
And, while it is true that not all believers who are sick receive healing, that is not a commentary upon the meaning of the word of God, but rather a commentary upon us as people.
I don't believe that. That is not necessarily the case. I think you mean "negative" commentary, not just commentary. It does not have to be a negative commentary upon us as a people. It was not a negative commentary upon Job that his family was destroyed, his possessions stolen, his family killed and that he was stricken with disease.
We should be very careful as a people not to judge those who have calamity in their lives. Maybe these calamities are for the church to learn compassion and mercy and how to comfort and pray. In God's mind, there could be a million reasons. Suffering and sickness are tools in God's hands, but we (understandably) want to run from them as fast as we can.
Just-in: What I meant was that we often use circumstance to interpret scripture. Such as, "Well, it must not be God's will to heal all or to heal every time since we do not see all healed." I would say that this is not a commentary on the word of God (that is not the measure by which we should interpret scripture), but rather that is a commentary on the fact that we, as imperfect people, do not always receive what God has provided for us. By analogy, God does not will that any perish, but that all come to repentance. Yet, millions die each year lost and will perish. But this does not mean that God saves some and refuses others. It simply means that not all receive the salvation that has been provided for them. Job was pre-atonement. So, he did not have the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ to look to. We can learn much from Job, but I am not sure his experience is applicable to this particular point.
I do agree with you. Many have had a very judgmental attitude toward those who are afflicted with illness, disease, etc. Among those who have fallen into a ditch, there has often been full scale condemnation of someone because their "faith was not complete". But this does not reflect the attitude of Christ. For example, he told the disciples that they could not cast out the demon because of their unbelief. It was a truth, and it was a correction, but it was not condemnation. Rather, it was a teaching tool. If you want to develop your faith to the level that you can cast this one out, you need to be in much prayer and fasting. There is a faith that comes from relationship with God through prayer, fasting, and devotion to His word that we must labor to develop. It is laboring to enter into the rest of faith. There is not condemnation in a school boy being in the 5th grade and not yet understanding calculus. But that school boy should be mastering long division and hopefully beginning to learn Algebra. We are where we are, but we should be progressing. That is the growth process of a believer.
I do not agree that sickness and disease are tools in God's hands. But this goes back to my original post in this thread. What you believe about the sovereignty and working of God will determine where you fall on this issue. Sickness is a result of sin just as temptation to evil is a result of sin. Corruption of our minds and corruption of our bodies are both effects of sin. Of course I am speaking here of Adam's transgression, not of a person's own individual sins. Jesus came to do the will of the father and proceeded to heal all that were sick. Not once to we find Jesus using sickness or disease as a tool in the life of a believer. The only times that we see sickness, disease, or death coming at the hand of God it was in judgement of sinners, not in training of believers. However, I do know very dear and precious believers who have a wonderful walk with God who disagree with me as I know you do as well. And, I love them dearly as they do me as well, and we do not become angry with one another over the issue. But, I believe it cannot be borne out scripturally that God uses sickness and disease as a tool in the life of a believer. I have never seen one scriptural precedent for it.
I do not know, and I don't think anyone does, all of the reasons why we do not always receive healing. I do know that we cannot thwart our ultimate appointment with death by believing for healing. Our bodies, because of corruption, will ultimately fail us. So again, who has room to condemn? Not I for sure!
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Travis
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| | 2014/3/20 10:56 | Profile |
| | Re: | | I am of the opinion that our circumstances can prove/confirm God's word but not disprove God's word.
because...
Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
We will just have to agree to disagree about sickness and disease being a tool in God's hand to reprove and chasten or bring us to a deeper understanding and revelation of His ways (Job). I will present a few things to you for consideration.
As proved by 1 Cor 11:27-32, where God allowed unruly believers to get sick because they did not reverence the Lord's Supper.
Paul is reproving them for the manner in which they observed the Lord's Supper. They incurred the chastisement of God. Paul sees it to be a real chastisement because later he says, "But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world." (1Co_11:32) Here, it is clear that sickness as a judgment of God, a chastisement for sin.
"God doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men" (Lamentations 3:33). There is always a reason that God may allow us to be deprived of health. He may want to draw our attention to some sin we do not recognize. "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee" (John 5:14).
But at the same time, in the case when a man was born blind, the disciples asked the Lord, "Who did sin, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" and Jesus answered, "Neither hath this man sinned nor his parents" (John 9:3).
The Lord is teaching us that we should not accuse every sick person of sin.
When we are sick we should begin by discerning ourselves and coming before our Heavenly Father with an open and honest heart asking if we have grieved Him in anyway. (I Corinthians 11:31)
"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged." |
| | 2014/3/20 12:31 | |
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