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savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2010


 Re: The rise of a new Judaism



"The center of redemptive history its not Moses and the nation of Israel." - bearmaster

More on that at the following link.

WATCH IT NOW!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_89Ykl6F4Tc


Romans 2:28,29

 2014/3/10 21:17Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2037


 Re: Israel as the center of redemptive history

I had written this yesterday but didn't share it because I wanted to look it over etc. again and it's not a response to recent posts in this thread because I already had typed out most of it yesterday. I was already going to share it this morning anyway. I've heard about the Messianic movement and the good things they have brought as well as things that many perceive as not so good. I likely need to study more about the particular ins and outs and there have been good points made here in this discussion. I went to a service in a Messianic synagogue once and came away edified and from time to time I go to a local Reformed synagogue here so as to be able to better understand Judaism and those involved in it. I figured if I'm going to discuss Judaism and Christianity with folks and perhaps Jewish people then I figured I at least need to know more about what Judaism is about. I've made some friends there and I'm glad I have attended even though it's a non Christian environment I find myself in when I'm there. The original poster here has made some very good points that need to be remembered. Yet one point that stuck out to me was the statement that this Messianic movement sees Israel as the center of redemptive history. I know it might or can be said that the human heart and the Spirit within the hearts of believers is the center of redemptive history. That is very true to a large degree especially because the Spirit dwells within because of one's faith in the cross. And believers in Christ became part of a worldwide family including all the nations. Yet the body of Christ being worldwide at this point has been uded throgout history and today to diminish the role of Israel which I still see as central in many importsant respects. It was prophesied the Messiah would come to Israel, He came and made His appearance to Israel before His resurrection and ascension so where might His second coming take place? In my opinion, which I believe is Biblical, when He returns it will be to the same nation He left so it's hard to see how the land of Israel does not have a very central place in redemptive history. The nation Christ came to and the nation He will return to has got to be overwhelmingly important. Meanwhile, I have read the points the original poster made and am not disregarding them and thanks for sharing them.

Thank you.


_________________
David Winter

 2014/3/11 4:23Profile
budgie
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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re:

There has been some very interesting points brought up in this discussion to date and so many areas to be aware of.

Where would be English speaking Gentile believers be today without the understanding of the Hebrew and the Greek, we certainly would not understand the Agape Love of God.

As found in the Letters to the 7 Churches there were many praiseworthy things but also many things that Jesus saw as a major concern.

There is a need for much balance in the Churches today and even so in our lives.

The early Gentiles that were accepted into the Jewish Christ believing Church Rejoiced in that there was only a few restrictions placed on them by the Church of believing Jews and that was as follows.

Act_15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act_15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Act_21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Act 15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
Act 15:31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

How simple and yet liberating for the Gentile believers that came into the Church of Christ.

Freedom and Liberty.

As to the Hebraic focus coming into the Churches today I myself have been richly blessed as the Hebraic focus has been on Jesus Christ and His fulfilment in the Feasts.

There is much to learn and much to celebrate in the Hebrew as much as the Greek, Shane Willard as well as Joseph Prince have revealed much truth and much visual picture of the Feasts and of Hebrew Paleo Pictures as well as Dr Frank Seekins.

There is so much that the Churches can learn today from the Hebraic perspective, but sadly as some have of you have mentioned there are those that become headstrong and elitest as if they are more advanced or scholarly or even more Godly that others, this is of course great sadness.

Once we force others to comply to a system of any kind it has then become pharassitical in a sense.

Colossians speaks well as follows

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

May we all be Humbled in our walk in Christ and not see ourselves as any higher or more important than any other member in the body of Christ.

May all the Hebraic learning and celebrating of the Feasts bring us much closer to Jesus and may they reveal more of His fulfilment.

There is much that can be learned from celebrating the Feasts, they are not all just focused on a sacrifice.

There is the searching of ones heart, ones attitude, ones home, ones life.

There is the ordained days of Repentance, prayer, fasting, the Focus on Jesus, the rejoicing, the emptying of ones own guilt.

There are many in the Church today that are carrying around so much pain, so much guilt, so much anger, so much hurt.

The Nation of Israel had an appointed Day of Atonement where the whole nations guilt and sin was declared and released, cleansing was given and they saw their sin depart from them after the laying on of hands on the goat.

We have much more, we have Jesus blood and each day we can be set free from all of the pain and guilt, yet many do not see this.

Shane Willard has done an amazing video on the Day of Atonement with all the Hebraic mindset, please watch, you will see the Hebraic focus as a great blessing to the Church of today.

May we have freedom and walk in the Truth of Gods Word.

Jesus is Coming and every eye will see Him.

 2014/3/12 7:11Profile









 Re:

We understand that Jesus gave two commands we remember in the church. These two commands have been understood to mean the Lord's Supper the baptism of new believers in Christ. Anything observed beyond those two commands becomes a matter of concern. I'm speaking of the Jewish feast days. Though it may be argued there is freedom in Christ to observe such. There is the danger of a little leaven leavening the whole lump of dough. This is what Paul warns of in Gal. 5:9.

Paul does say in Gal.4:10-11 that they were observing days and months and seasons and years his concern was he had labored in vain over the Galatians.

If Paul warned the Galatians believers about celebrating Jewish beast days. Should we not take this warning to heart today?

In Col. 2:16-17 Paul again warns that a believer should not be judged in regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. He tells us that these are a mere shadow. But the substance belongs to Christ.

Those who would advocate that New Covenant believers celebrate Jewish feast days are advancing a new Judaism. They are bringing New Covenant believers into a new form of legalism. Which is really the Judaism that Paul warn the Galatians about.

Saints, please understand, I am not splitting theological hairs or looking for controversy. This new Judaism is permeating all sectors of the evangelical church. And at first this new Judaism appears harmless. Some would even say that it helps on their walk with Christ. But a warning must be shouted. The danger is being enslaved to the Mosaic Covenant.

God has called us to freedom under the New Covenant. 2nd Corinthians 3 , that whole chapter lays out the comparison and contrast of the old and new covenant. Indeed we are under the New Covenant and guided by the Holy Spirit.

We would do well to read Galatians and Hebrews. And these two letters the truth is clearly set forth that believers are under the new covenant.

Blaine

 2014/3/12 10:39
rnieman
Member



Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 146


 Re:

Budgie I really echo your statement as also being also a source of great blessing in my life:

“As to the Hebraic focus coming into the Churches today I myself have been richly blessed as the Hebraic focus has been on Jesus Christ and His fulfilment in the Feasts.”

Not so much for me in the celebrating of them, not to say that isn’t also a blessing, but more specifically the tying in both the Old Cov to the New in God’s timing of things. For example 50 days passed between the giving of the Torah on Sinai (Shavuot), which Jews celebrate to this day and 50 days passed from Jesus’s accession until the giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost in Acts. Unrelated to the feasts, another awesome tie between old and new is 3000 dying after Moses came down from the mountain and found many of them worshipping the golden calf, and in the new 3000 were raised from the dead at Pentecost Acts 2:41. And there are many more great things to learn by studying things from not only a Greek mindset but also from the Hebraic one (Rabbinic teaching methods, acrostics, the happenings during the intertestamental period leading up to Christ, during, after, etc.)

Bless you,

Russ

 2014/3/12 12:26Profile









 Re: Budgie and Mieman

If according to Paul on Col.2:17 the substance belongs to Christ. Then why go back to the shadow to learn spiritual truth? Is not Jesus in whom are hidden all of the treasures of wisdom and knowledge as Paul articulates in Col. 2:3?

Plummeting the depths and riches of Jesus is far mire satisfying and rewarding then celebrating the feast days of Israel.

But as expressed in my previous post celebrating those these days can lead one into slavery and bondage to the Mosaic code.

Blaine

 2014/3/12 12:40
rnieman
Member



Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 146


 Re:

Hi Blaine,

What I mean is that Jesus was raised Jewish in a Jewish culture was taught like a Jew and then as we see Him in the New Cov He then taught folks like a Jew. So for me, studying how Jewish thought was back then adds a real richness to Christ's words. I want to make myself clear, I don't condone, as I alluded to in my first post putting followers of Christ under the mosaic code. Think of it this way, in the words of Christ:
Matt 5:17

" 17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."

Christ is saying He came not to abolish Torah(Law), but rather to make it fuller in meaning, and then Jesus goes right into a discourse of the letter of the law(old cov) vs. the spirit of the law(new cov) which give the old letter a much fuller meaning under the spirit.

Russ

 2014/3/12 13:27Profile









 Re: Russ

Indeed we seev that Jesus has obtained more excellent ministry by being the mediator of a better covenant built on better promises (Heb.8:6). One of His promises is He will write His laws on our hearts and minds (Heb.8:10). Thus by His Spirit we can.live out the fulfillment of the law as He did (Rom.8:4). This is why I keep saying we are governed by the Holy Spirit and not by the Mosaic law (Gal.5:18).

Blaine

 2014/3/12 14:26
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greetings Blaine

you wrote:But as expressed in my previous post celebrating those these days can lead one into slavery and bondage to the Mosaic code.

Blaine

____________________

I agree with you on this brother. We need look no further then JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF. Feast and celebrations are traditions and the Bible tells us that the traditions of men nullifies the WORD of GOD.

Thank you for sharing this and for standing firm on the truth.

God bless
mj

 2014/3/12 14:30Profile
tbsounde2
Member



Joined: 2009/2/11
Posts: 179
Los Angeles, CA

 Re:

Hi rnieman,

Although I agree with your reasoning, there are certain historical and present day realities that need to be more deeply considered if one is to really apply the argument "Jesus was Jewish so we need to know Jewish culture." It appears to make total sense to look to today's Jewish people and culture to see what Jewish people, including Jesus was like back then. BUT, it is clear that MUCH has changed from the Judaism of Jesus's time to the Judaism of today. For one, there is no longer a temple or a priesthood that is operative today. There are also countless Mishnah (commentary written by men) to which a countless number of different sects have developed over time (far more than just Pharisee vs Sadducee) and has become a source of contention between the different sects. One only need visit Israel and observe the myriad of different sects (particularly the the orthodox ones) to get a better idea. There are also untold numbers of Jewish myths and fables that have developed along the way that are not to be found in the Bible but have merely been added on as part of Rabbinic tradition. So based on this present day reality where there are so many vastly different "flavors" of Judaism, which one will you pick to use as a "looking glass" into the past of what Jesus must have been like? I think this is actually quite an impossible task because the road has deviated and split and been "remade" several times throughout history and I don't think we were meant to approach it this way. Now, although I find value and importance in trying to put things into historical context, I think the means by which it is done and also the potential applications drawn from it must be done with much care and caution, because modern day examples are just that, modern day examples, not the replica of the past.

Now, moving on slightly from this point, in regards to the feasts, the question is not even about did Jesus abolish or fulfill the Law and whatever ambiguity is to be found in that statement, but it is made quite clear throughout scripture as well as church history and tradition that followed that indicates that we are no longer bound to the feasts just as much as we are no longer bound to food laws. These things of the Old Covenant were as the author of Hebrews said merely a SHADOW, while Jesus himself IS THE FULFILLMENT (finished and completed in Him). There is nothing in scripture to indicate that it is somehow "more pleasing to God" to keep the feasts or abstain from certain foods or else the apostles failed in instructing the church (in Acts) and laying down what one would think to be such a "crucial" detail to be laid out for church tradition that would follow. I actually find the argument "it is more pleasing to God" or "it will help you relate better with Jesus because He was Jewish" to be quite deceiving, thinking to put us back in bondage through "good intentions" which might "sound" good and noble and pious, but is not according to scripture and church tradition and history which therefore makes it mere presumption and full of the wisdom of man and not of God. And that's the crazy thing about these last days that we need to watch out for. Deception is not called deception because it is easy to spot. They are not called wolves in sheep's clothing for no reason. It is because they will come with flattering words and have an "appearance of godliness" and even seem to know scripture and even say "Jesus is the Christ" and yet be themselves deceived and go on deceiving others. We must know the Word and what it says and really stand firm in these last days and measure ALL things through THIS "looking glass" lest our own eyes deceive us and lead us down a "well meaning" road of presumption and end up receiving the sorrows that are to be found at the end of it.


_________________
Will

 2014/3/12 14:50Profile





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