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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Is Sermon Index Forbidding the Examination of Teachings? Please clarify.

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 Dear sister Rainy, brothers George and Greg, Mother Ginny

all the saints at SI. I love my dear brother Greg with all my love, and the love of Messiah.....and I of course, KNOW, that he wasn't condemning me at all. Someday, in the New Jerusalem, he will be given "ten minas" for all that he has done for sake of the Blood, and the Name above all Names.....early 20's?.....crafts a website with Jesus, containing precious audio teachings AND maintains a global reach forum?

Praise God!!! I love my brother, and all of you, the saints, who I have not known in the flesh, but only in the Spirit, and in our spirits via this cyber link.

brother Greg is ENTIRELY correct....the man, Dr. Roberts, lost himself and was writing kind of visceral and foul....and I really prayed before I posted it with a modicum of unease....I knew the two words that Greg would object to....I don't blame him, they are objectionable....I wouldn't use them about ANYBODY....even somebody deemed a child of darkness....AND the very last sentence the man wrote was strong and harsh. I knew Greg might object to that.......BUT, I dint post it to taunt, or test my brother......but posted it because this man, Dr. Paul Roberts served at the highest levels of national power, and is convinced national leadership has become insane, deluded, arrogant to the point, they believe they can WIN a first strike nuclear war.

I know what God has allowed me to see, and I cannot say...many things I cannot say, some because "I don't know"...others because i'm told not to, brethren I feel many times people are AFRAID to say, "I don't know"....and its okay to say that, because it underlines our TOTAL Dependency on God and Jesus, our Beautiful Savior, The Branch, Stump of Jesse.

and what did this man see?...or what was he told?....by either other men of worldly rank?...OR was he told by the LORD?.....the latter, I don't know. Even men that fear God (revere) can come unglued a bit, and use intemperate language, which is what he did. Greg's right.

Brother George, what you wrote about me, I take not like a compliment in the flesh, meaning....getting all happy, coz somebody said "nice" about me, but a Word from God, in that you have seen my abject aloneness. 99.9% of the time, I see no other person.....and its not because I live in the city, hiding in an apt, with 16 cats and a Bible, or in a suburban cookie cutter house, with the shades drawn....no, God answered my prayer, "Bend me LORD", and has hidden me away in the "desolate place", meaning the Upper rural Midwest, on a forested ridge, land He gave me, and a very large humble cabin. He has given the luxury of being able to spend LOTS of time in His Word, and speaking with Him.....and in the process of "bending", if I could collect every tear I have shed, mourning like a dove over a marriage I ruined, over my craven unprofitability, over a land and people grown cold, hapless and helpless....all those tears?....brother, I would have buckets...I have NO IDEA what He is calling me for yet...but all the tears?....I thank Him for them, He loves me, as He loves all of you...Thank God for the tears, for contrition, for a broken heart.

Of course THERE IS JOY IN SALVATION!!! I love to laugh, but I beg for revival, spreading in concentric rings...personal revival, which is part and parcel of "personal work", we should be doing anyway....but also, just for starters, this county of 25,000 souls I live in, size of Manhattan....25,000 and SO MANY church buildings....and so cold. Much alcoholism, sports idolatry, idolatry over rural practices, dairy, crop, livestock, much drug use....more prescription than you can imagine....and the ONLY POSSIBLE way to stir a Merciful Loving God is to gather up a company of saints, even just 5, and pour out our souls for this little county....and I haven't found those five yet.....even then, The LORD is sovereign in revival....."I don't know"....but I have faith, and faith is enough.

Sister Rainy, as far as a blog?....babylon is all over this net, and its not that I have fear of it or their minions, i'm not giving them anything they can grab on.

You know the period of the early Church, lets say like 50AD? you had the zealots in Israel, armed up, going to take on the romans, preaching rebellion....then you had the Church, preaching Messiah, and taking "out" The Word to the Gentiles, of the Blood that cleanses all sin, the Resurrected Messiah, the Holy Spirit that Baptizes you, and LIVES IN YOU, and Thru you.

you see?...one was a violent rebellion, the Other, The Kingdom of God, continues to this very day....and the problem with blogs, and "end times" is that "zealots" creep into the camp...sometimes babylon will even send their minions in, talking loud about violent rebellion, and leading EVEN the elect astray.....and this is what babylon wants...and THATS why Greg maintained his stance.

we are NOT unaware of the schemes of the devil.

May God bring revival, and THEN use(redeem) the internet to noise abroad any beautiful news of a HeavenSent Revival, just as Frank Bartleman did with brother Pike in the early 1900's publication, "The Way of Faith", among many other Holiness periodicals, which was the internet of its time.

forgive me for blithering on...sometimes I get lonely (laughing) in Jesus love, neil

 2014/3/9 12:56
rainydaygirl
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re: Dear sister Rainy, brothers George and Greg, Mother Ginny

neil you are right blogs can stir things up more then they can do good. i just appreciate your posts as i do Franks. as ginnyrose said your insights are wonderful, especially given your background and knowledge of how these issue work. perhaps there is room for discussion on these matters(as i believe they are end times related) to be done in such a way that stays within the boundaries of SI. perhaps sharing about current events with the insights the Lord has shown us minus the news articles/commentary itself would be best. i know i appreciate reading the things posted here by Blaine about the persecuted as well. i believe as we pray and seek Jesus He will give us understanding in this. in these times when its seems storm clouds are coming and the world only grows darker it is comforting to talk to other brothers and sister who really desire Jesus be lifted up. at least it is for me. i am always interested in hearing the things the Lord is showing others as i believe He speaks to each one of us.

at the end of the day i understand Greg's decision for modding the forum as he does. i have heard terrible stories about other forums so i know the mods do take care to do things right.

rdg

 2014/3/9 13:15Profile









 Re: Is Sermon Index Forbidding the Examination of Teachings? Please clarify.

It seems that brother Gregs decision to not allow SI to become a haven for hearsay about ministerial failings or anti-government talk and/or conspiracy theories might not sit well with some of us.

But to be blunt, it doesn't matter if this kind of talk is fair game, or right or wrong. I personally think it should be allowed to a certain extent, but that is not up to me...and frankly there are far more important things in the world to get worked up over, right?

The end of the matter is that the owner of "the house" has asked for these kinds of discussion to cease. And as intelligent adults it is abundantly clear as to the "spirit" of what he is saying, so why ask such a question as posed in this thread?

I have been guilty many times in the past when a decision has been made that upsets me and cuts into my flesh. Many times! This has caused me to become contentious...I would humbly ask that we all examine our hearts in these matters.

We must also be careful when walking the fine line between flattering and actually honoring our brother Greg. I think true respect is to simply just honor his requests without any fuss or fanfare.

 2014/3/9 15:50









 Re:

Hi Awakened,

You did not identify who you were talking to. Myself, I don't have any problems with Greg not allowing anti-government talk or conspiracy theories, I only wanted to examine teachings that could lead many astray and have led many astray. I recall numerous news articles in the past posted by others on SI regarding Doug Philips of Vision Forum, Tom White with Voice of the Martyrs, Ted Haggard of New Life Church, and many others. All posted here on SI. Greg says he is not opposed to news articles for the sake of prayer but does not want anyone to go into the sordid details of the particular "scandals". That is totally understandable and I don't recall anyone "piling on" any of these men. Anti-government talk does not need any explanation of why that should not be allowed, but what is "anti" to one person is not "anti" to another. For instance, speaking about historical events is not anti-government. Using SI to start a revolution is anti-government. Conspiracy theories of course are always just theories until proven fact such as the recent Affordable Health Care act. I will not name names but it is clear now that unnamed individuals and entire groups of people conspired to pass that legislation by lying to Congress and the American people. The American people did not find out the conspiracy theory was fact until the facts started getting released. That is just one example of what was a conspiracy theory that was actually proven fact. There are many more.

But, aside from all those things, I believe we should be responsible to hearing from fellow brethren for teaching that is made public and could bring people into bondage or worse. And we should be like the Bereans and search the scriptures to "see if these things are so". Are we able to do that as a community, anymore?

For instance, Greg just publicly started a new thread titled, "Very Important Book - Touching Godliness Through Submission". He puts his stamp of approval and the reputation of SI on every thread he creates and he has done it several times with KP Yohannon's book. I am halfway through this book and I have some real disagreements with this brother's idea of spiritual authority. I won't say more for fear that some will take my statements as slander. So far I have not slandered this brother and I don't intend to. Saying I have some serious reservations about some of his teaching is not slander. In fact, you would think that people would want to know why from a scriptural point of view I have these reservations. Yet is unclear to me if I will be able to quote some of the very troubling passages in his book and state reasons why I think some of his material is very troublesome? The reason I am unclear is because I got the impression that we are not allowed to bring up Bill Gothard's teachings, which are very public and explain why those teachings are incorrect and potentially damaging and in fact have damaged many.

One of my favorite teachers is Derek Prince, however he and Bob Mumford and Jose Luis Ortiz got caught up big time in the Shepherding/Discipleship movement of the 70s. Many of you are probably too young to remember that or were not yet a Believer. They were humble men and repented of their error, yet it was a very subtle thing that even tripped them up. Deception still is very subtle thing.

But to my point: Are we just posting teachings and no longer examining them? Is that what we have been reduced to?

Even if a teacher only reaches hundreds, his teachings should be examined. How much more should the teaching of men be looked at who preach and teach to hundreds of thousands?

You say this site is only for revival articles, news and preachings? I have seen revival come into people's lives when various deception they were under was exposed by the light of truth. And much deception abounds from the twisting of Scriptures.


 2014/3/9 17:17









 Re:

Quote:
How many children have grown up in godly homes but fall prey to bad habits because of the rebellious influence of newfound friends in college or university where they attend?

Even a casual conversation with a co-worker, discussing shared hurts related to a leader, can be the start of incredible damage in the work of God. KP Yohannan Touching Godliness Through Submission. page 166



Quote:
Anti-government talk does not need any explanation of why that should not be allowed, but what is "anti" to one person is not "anti" to another. For instance, speaking about historical events is not anti-government. Just-In



“There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.” (Proverbs 14:12, NASB95)

When my daughter Sarah was 15 she became very disrespectful to my wife. For several years I sought her to be more respectful. She was always my daughter and never spoke against me at all. She trusted me and knew that I was for her and not against her. Two years of having to remind her to be respectful to her mother put some considerable pressure on that affection and trust she had for me and she began to doubt my motive towards her. When she reached 18 years old I came to her one day and gave her a contract to sign. "What is it Daddy she said". I explained that it was her freedom to do as she pleased. She laughter nervously and then asked me more soberly. I explained that it was the contract to a beautiful flat in the heart of the town. I gave her £10,000.00 and explained that as she could no longer respect her mother she could have her freedom and accept the responsibility for her own life. From that day on she changed her attitude.

A few months later a young man came along. Sarah told me about him and I asked to meet him. From the first time we met it was clear that this young man was not in a good place. He came out of a background of witchcraft and so he thought he was well versed in the meaning of rebellion. For six months I stood against him in prayer from a distance. I allowed my daughter the freedom to examine this young man for herself. One night I received a text from my daughter explaining that she and her best friend were spending the night at this young mans house. So I replied to my daughter to be wise and careful. Her reply was all that I needed to know that the time to act had come. "I am ok daddy , I am sat on the sofa with Stevens jumper on keeping warm".

Within five minutes I was at the house and I took my daughter home with her best friend. On the way home Sarah explained that for months Steven had been telling her that she was old enough to do as she pleased. He even explained that he had taken a similar position with his parents and this had been the basis for escaping from witchcraft. He had to disobey them and escape for his own life. He was right of course because his parents had both been practising witches, but he was also sowing rebellion in my daughters heart towards the one person who had the authority to preserve her and keep her. As long as she was able to obey me she was preserved. Had she once given herself over in agreement to this man she would have been lost to another man who would have used her and hurt her for life.

Some people find this kind of thing very difficult. I have no difficulty with it at all. Unlike most believers they have never been up close and personal with Satan. I have been as an unbeliever and I know what past hurts do to inform present rebellion. Discussing the past is utter folly if that results in rebellion. When we question those in authority over us do we understand the real consequences.

Let me trouble you a little further with an explanation concerning my daughter wearing the boys jumper to keep warm. As a former occultist I practised controlling others. I did it from an early age, even as a seven year old child I was learning from the air. Most parents are worried about their children taking their clothes off. The instant I knew that he had given my daughter his garment, I knew that he was confident enough to take possession of her. Words are like a cover. When we speak them over someone we are able to control them if that person yields to our words.This reality is so like true authority that many people practise a form of witchcraft and do not realise it. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. The jumper was just a symbol. The reality was in his words.

 2014/3/9 19:16
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37035
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
For instance, Greg just publicly started a new thread titled, "Very Important Book - Touching Godliness Through Submission". He puts his stamp of approval and the reputation of SI on every thread he creates and he has done it several times with KP Yohannon's book. I am halfway through this book and I have some real disagreements with this brother's idea of spiritual authority. I won't say more for fear that some will take my statements as slander. So far I have not slandered this brother and I don't intend to. Saying I have some serious reservations about some of his teaching is not slander. In fact, you would think that people would want to know why from a scriptural point of view I have these reservations. Yet is unclear to me if I will be able to quote some of the very troubling passages in his book and state reasons why I think some of his material is very troublesome? The reason I am unclear is because I got the impression that we are not allowed to bring up Bill Gothard's teachings, which are very public and explain why those teachings are incorrect and potentially damaging and in fact have damaged many.



Brother,

We are simply desiring that because of the current accusations, slander, assumptions, and possible "sin" of this Elder brother that we should really not have a "free for all" now on everything in his ministry, teachings etc. There have been people in the past who have written much against this brother and he has been reviled many times. Again, I personally do not endorse the ministry heavily but it is a godly conservative ministry and we do not want to add to any young people being deceived and discouraged by questioning this group and their upbringing.

If you feel so strongly that you MUST post about the wrongs you think are in the ministry at this time, what is your motive? Nothing good right now can come from it, the ministry is not unblbical and wicked they are a good group of brethren. Of course we can always find something wrong and that is subject to every person's opinion.

We have put this in the Community rules on SermonIndex:

===

9. RESPECTING AUTHORITY - Another guiding principle is submission to authority in the body of Christ. God has and continues to anoint men over areas of the church and ministries in the kingdom of God (Hebrews 13:17 ). Christian freedom is not being free from submission but rather freedom is experienced when we submit. We ask the forum users to submit to the servant leaders (moderators) on the forum here. We ask for prayers for these moderators also that they can make wise decisions as we endeavour to keep the unity of the saints. The great bible teacher Watchman Nee himself said in the local church he always sought to find someone to submit to. Therefore even leaders in the body of Christ need to submit to others. We advocate servant-leadership and those who lead the body of Christ with humility and brokenness (1 Peter 5:1-14). A recommend book resource: Touching Godliness Through Submission by K.P. Yohannan - http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=22831

==

If there were no rules, no servant leaders in the body of Christ, then everyone would just do what is right in their own eyes and always claim its God's leading them this way.

If you are not willing to listen to anything we are saying we encourage you to participate in another Christian forum where perhaps they are "free-for-all's" and very little moderation if any.

I have no personal agenda and my conscience is clear, simply put this ministry forums do have rules, do have servant leaders, and we are trying our best to ensure we are accountable to God one day.

I trust that is clear.


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/3/9 20:49Profile









 Re:

Brother Greg,

After praying about this and considering it before the Lord I realize you are absolutely correct. And, I really do not have any motive to talk about or uncover any man and all that is important and vital is to talk and write about the truth.

This is where I will concentrate my efforts and this is what I have always enjoyed doing and where I have been most effective. I will leave the examination of teachings up to others. To be sure, I do examine them, but I have no need to write about them.

Thank you.

 2014/3/9 21:14
Beige
Member



Joined: 2012/7/14
Posts: 54


 Re:

Excellent post Kelly. Your daughter is so very blessed to have a godly father. I learned some very godly things concerning witchcraft, manipulation and it manifestations from Derek Prince's teachings. I highly recommend them. One thing I remember Derek saying was that he believed that the strong men that we need to bind in the USA in order to plunder the kingdom of satan for the kingdom of God was rebellion and witchcraft. Witchcraft follows rebellion in manifestation and you can see it in king Saul's life. After he rebelled against God's instructions he turned to witchcraft. Witchcraft and manipulation are the means by which people progress to continue to walk in rebellion against God. They have to have a pathway, a roadway if you will, to progress in their goals which are denied them by God. So witchcraft becomes their means to circumvent God and godly authority. This young man you speak of was not free of witchcraft, but rather was practicing it by encouraging rebellion through his manipulation -- God bless you sir!

Right now I believe we can see those same spirits manifesting themselves all over, in and around the ministry failures in the United States -- The enemy of our souls wants to manipulate us into rebellion so that same enemy can supplant godly teaching and bring us to a path of manipulation and witchcraft. I am almost certain that the same spirit of manipulation and witchcraft is what has been sent against some of the godly people in whom was found cracks in their armor allowing rebellion to spread out against many. I hope we will all be interceding, forgiving the people who have been attacked, and in turn binding and attacking these evil forces.

 2014/3/9 22:03Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3223
Texas

 Re:

And the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?"

When I read this scripture above, I sometimes wonder if all the fuss about the teachings, and the faith that we have in all Pastors, just goes way too far. I think we would all probably agree that theologians do have an advantage as far as Scripture compared to most, but I don't think I have ever listen to one pastor in my life that doesn't interject opinion to Scripture. Personally I have more faith in the disciples teachings, than I do Pastors. When I see that God can open the mouth of a donkey and have it speak that has me looking way outside the box, to the teachings of the word of God. There are couple of pastors that I do enjoy listening to, I use their message as a catalyst to send me searching my spirit for what that Scripture is ministering to me. I don't want to ever get locked into the web of letting man speak beyond my spirit and what my spirit is saying to me through the scriptures. The Lord is my shepherd, and I will let him minister to me through the spirit. I will not judge or hold any pastor accountable for their teachings, I was not called to do this, I will let God hold them accountable, while I'll spend my valuable time letting the Spirit minister the real truth to me. The spirit holds no opinions, only truth.


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2014/3/9 23:10Profile









 Re:

Hi Bill,

I just wanted to say that it's not opinions sprinkled in messages that are concerning. It is theology created from twisting Scripture and that can be seriously harmful to individuals and families. God will not just hold teachers accountable, but those who knew the harm of the teachings and supported the teacher while giving their approval.

I wanted to be clear that we are not talking about small stuff here. However, I believe it is still best to preach and teach the truth and let the Holy Spirit speak to the hearts of His people because as Jesus taught in Matthew 13, we don't have the wisdom or insight into the hearts of people to separate the wheat from the tares. We may destroy some of the wheat in the process. Sure, we may save a lot of wheat, but the Lord's point was that some wheat may be destroyed and that would defeat one's purpose of saving the wheat.

Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

So, for example, if someone was being abused spiritually through a false teaching of spiritual authority and they read or listened to a message on a healthy scriptural teaching on spiritual authority (that did not cast aspersions on anyone), then the truth in the message may be instrumental in waking them up or giving them the impetus to do something to take themselves or their family out from under the abuse.

I think this is the best way to do things. Preach and teach the truth, and let God take care of individuals. I do understand though if seriously bad things are happening to people that an individual or group may bring it to the attention of the Body of Christ. We are suppose to expose the unfruitful works of darkness, right?

Eph_5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

As Greg indicated in many ways, this is not the forum for pointing out incorrect teachings and I am actually glad that particular point has been resoundingly made. It will force all of us to write articles of truth rather than pointing out errors of teachers. It will be interesting to watch and read threads as we move forward.

 2014/3/10 1:25





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