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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Scripturess support the teaching of an eternal hell

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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5390
NC, USA

 Re:

Hey just-in

No need for you to prove anything. We are just discussing.

I agree with you about that extreme form of annihilationism. My dad would call that "hippie talk".


_________________
Todd

 2014/3/4 11:18Profile









 Re:

I guess what I am trying to say, is that I have reach the end of what I am able to contribute and it would just be vain jangling on my part. Not saying that for you or others, just me.

 2014/3/4 11:34
noone
Member



Joined: 2008/3/17
Posts: 75
United States

 Re:

Quote by Bearmaster:
"Even a child reading the New Testament would see the hell is eternal place of suffering and is to be avoided by faith in Jesus Christ."

Me:
That may be a stretch.....


Quote by Bearmaster:
"the doctrine of eternal punishment has been a truth the historic church has taught. It has been taught from the word. It has been hammered out and reflected in various creeds and confessions from various theological view points.

Thus historic Christianity does hold that those who reject Jesus Christ will suffer eternal torment in a fiery hell."

Quote by Bearmaster:
"Honestly that is the problem. To leave the clear teaching of Scripture , the simplicity of Christ in His Word, and to listen to the opinion of men which is called theology, that is hogwash.

We are far safer to stay within the simplicity of Christ and His Word, and not try to water it down with the arrogant opinion of men who call themselves theologians."

Me:
So do you want us to trust the Historic Church, which is man's opinion/theology or not?


_________________
Tina

 2014/3/4 12:43Profile









 Re:

Maybe I do have something else to contribute. I will let you judge these scriptures.

Does Evangelical theology believe that the Lake of Fire is annihilation?

Because, at the end of Rev 20:10 it says, "tormented day and night for ever and ever".

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And, further down.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So, the devil, beast, false prophet and whosover was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is the plain scripture of Rev 20:10 and 20:15.

What else are we to believe?

I know there are teachings that go into the "greek" and teach that "forever and ever" does not mean "forever and ever", so those who believe that have come to the conclusion the Lake of Fire is not forever and ever. They rationalize the plain speech of scripture means something else.

 2014/3/4 12:55
Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 600
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re:

Quote:


by just-in on 2014/3/4 12:55:51

I know there are teachings that go into the "greek" and teach that "forever and ever" do not mean "forever and ever", so those who believe that have come to the conclusion the Lake of Fire is not forever and ever. They rationalize the plain speech of scripture means something else.



Actually what you find when you look at the Greek word used there is that it DOES mean "forever and ever". You can easily check the Greek words with e-sword. The one used there is:

G165
αἰών
aiōn
Thayer Definition:
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the same as G104
Citing in TDNT: 1:197, 31


People who are playing with the meanings of the words write or say things such as: "You have given the reasons why eternal (Aion) can mean "forever and forever.""

They quickly point out that the word CAN have other meanings. This is true for most ALL words in all translations. As a bilingual, I deal with that issue all the time. Just because a word CAN MEAN something else in another setting they throw in the idea that it is possible that it does not mean what it CLEARLY says. To add emphasis here, the writer of Revelation in both places (ch. 14 and ch. 20) adds the DAY AND NIGHT issue making it very clear that it is a perpetual situation of perpetual torment.

As a bilingual, it angers me with holy indignation when I see people use such flimsy misleading arguments as "it CAN mean something else" in order to negate what MANY professional translators have clearly translated it to mean! A real translator "knows his stuff" (to put it in my Southern terminology). When I translate from Spanish to English or from English to Spanish, I translate phrase for phrase the exact MEANING of the passage. Mechanical translators (like Google Translate)make frequent blunders, but a really good human translator can translate exact meanings even if it takes extra words to do so.

On another thread, Greg listed several different translations of Rev. 14:10. It all says the same thing. Those who cling to the misleading argument that the Greek words CAN mean something else are willfully ignoring the plain meaning of the text that even a child could understand.

We have translators going throughout the world translating God's eternal Word into as many known languages as possible. They have strict guidelines for exact translations. In English, we have MANY translations to compare. Those who choose willful blindness will answer for it. To whom much is given, much shall be required.


_________________
Michael Strickland

 2014/3/4 13:27Profile









 Re:

Why wouldn't the greek writers use a different greek word that exclusively means eternal/everlasting? like "Aidios" G126

Aionian G166 would have a clear messianic-age flavor to it to the early Jewish readers. wouldn't it?

 2014/3/4 13:41









 Re:

Hi Lorddoitagain,

I am aware of the translating games played today. In the middle ages, God's word was burned all at once (whole bibles) in the town square. Today, His word is being burned again (destroyed), but this time word by word and by "scholars" from within.

 2014/3/4 13:48









 Re:

Lorddoitagain and Just-in.

To put it laymanly, I am "hardcore" too with Scripture and topics that are vital. But more towards the actual hebrew and greek, ever since I discovered e-sword with NASB study set. If the authors exclusively used Aionian (G166) for the topic of humans life or death, that means something. To me it does. If the writers used Aidios G126 for angels' judgement. That says something to me.

Idea 1. When Jude talked about Sodom he said "Aionian Fire" in the very next verse after using "Aidios bonds" for angels.

And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal(G126) bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (G166) fire.
(Jude 1:6-7 NASB)

Is there something to that? I think I must consider it.

Also. Jesus said "God has the power to destroy the body and soul in Hell," not "He WILL destroy your body and soul in hell". If language usage is not clearly "one-way" how can you say its "one-way" for sure?

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(Matthew 10:28 NASB)

 2014/3/4 14:16
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5390
NC, USA

 Re:

Lorddoitagain--

Your esword references quote Thomas Thayer, the famous lexicographer of the scriptures. You might be surprised to learn that he was a staunch advocate of Universal Reconciliation.

You can read his article regarding how he sees scripture in regard to this topic:

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/tbhell.html

P.S. Bear-- this article has a very interesting discussion on the story of Lazarus and the rich man. You may find it enlightening and I recommend you read it. In short, the story was not original with Jesus.


_________________
Todd

 2014/3/4 14:57Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3238
Texas

 Re:

I found this while searching some scriptures, might order this book.
http://blogs.christianpost.com/guest-views/hell-glorifies-god-20266/


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2014/3/4 15:49Profile





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