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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Samuel Tregelles on the latter days

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 Samuel Tregelles on the latter days

In my opinion, here's a gem of a excerpt from his writings on Daniel. Regarding the dealings of God with Jews and Jerusalem in the latter days, he mentions that they are of interest to "to all those who see the importance which God attaches to that place and people." I realize all may not attach a equal degree of importance to them but yet many do and I suppose I'm sharing so as to share with them. We can be civil.

"The dealings of God in the latter day with the Jews and Jerusalem, possess an exceeding interest to all those who see the importance which God attaches to that place and people. A degree of prominence, which might at first seem strange, is given in the prophetic word to those scenes; but it is our place to sit as learners, having our ears open to receive the instruction of God, even when we are most at a loss to perceive the bearing of that instruction. Whatever is important in God's eyes ought to be so in ours, as being made the children of God:—He has said of Jerusalem, " My eyes and my heart shall be there perpetually." He has said of Israel, that if his covenant with the day and night cannot be broken, then He will not cast off his ancient people; Jesus died for that nation; they are still "beloved for the fathers' sakes": no marvel then that our eyes are directed again and again to the closing scenes of the period of God's indignation, and the dawn of that day in which God has said, " In those days and at that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve." What soul is there that has tasted the mercy of God, and rejoices in the grace which has been shown in the precious blood of Christ, that does not feel joy in the contemplation of this great and surpassing display of the same grace? It is, indeed, a privilege to be allowed to know what God is going to perform; and, knowing what the result is, we cannot judge any of the details to be unimportant."

-- Samuel P. Tregelles (1813-1875)


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David Winter

 2014/2/16 8:52Profile
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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Samuel Tregelles on the latter days

A really brilliant book to read by Samuel Tregelles is the book called
The Hope of Christs Second Coming.
I would recommend all to read as it is brilliantly presented and very applicable for today just as much as it was back in the 1800s.
Please read.

 2014/2/16 23:02Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1890


 Re: Samuel Tregelles on the latter days



Abraham was not only the father of the literal "nation" (Israel), but the promise said, "Thou shalt be the father of many nations." This is fulfilled in the Christian dispensation. "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: . . . Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (as it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations) " (Rom. 4 :13-17). Nothing is plainer than the fact so clearly stated in this text, that the promise of God to make Abraham a father of many nations has a spiritual fulfillment in the New Testament dispensation. God is making all nations children of Abraham by bringing them into the faith of the gospel. I desire the reader to note that Paul shows clearly that "if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect." This most decisively proves that since the passing of the legal age, the Jew enjoys no privilege above the Gentile. All this modern talk about "the chosen seed," "Jehovah's covenant people," "his own elect," "Zion" "Jerusalem," etc., and the application of all this to the literal nation of the Jews, is squarely against Paul's teaching. These terms applied to Israel under the law but never under the gospel. In this dispensation, "he IS NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly"-Rom. 2:28. That is, the literal seed counts for nothing. The only Jew now recognized is he "which is ONE INWARDLY"-v. 29. This the apostle defines as "that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter"-(ibid.). A moral change wrought in our hearts by the Spirit of God makes Jews of us all, and all such constitute the "Israel of God"-Gal. 6:16. "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Those who are of the flesh, these ARE NOT the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed"-Rom. 9:6-8 Who are the children of the promise? Here is Paul's answer, "Even US, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles"-vs. 24.

Under the law, the Jews were the Lord's peculiar, chosen people, his holy nation (Exod. 33 :16; 34 :12-14; Deut. 14:1, 2). Since the passing of that dispensation, no nation enjoys this privilege except the "spiritual house" of God, which is the church, called out from among all nations (1 Pet. 2:5); and of the Christian church it is said, Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; . . . which in time past were not people, but are now the people of God"-vs. 9, 10.

National distinctions ceased at the cross of Christ. Then and there Israel ceased to be God's nation. The seventy weeks determined upon the Jews and the sacredness their city, foretold in Dan. 9:24, had been numbered, and since that time "they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham" (Gal. 3 :7). "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (v. 26). "And ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs cording to the promise" (v. 29). "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise" (chap. 4:28). every convert of the cross, from the dawn of this dispensation to its close, helps to constitute the great spiritual family of Abraham.

The spiritual seed of Abraham under the gospel greatly outnumber the literal seed under the law (see Gal. 4:27). in other words, the new covenant church composed of Jews and Gentiles who are "born of the Spirit," are more numerous than were the old covenant church "born after the flesh."." "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands" (Rev. 7:9).

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, reseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham" (Gal. 3: 7-9). "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith" (v. 14). How can men mistake these plain statements? Christ is the seed through whom the nations of earth were to be blessed. All the children of faith (both Jews and Gentiles) are the seed to whom the blessing was to come. The Christian dispensation is "the times of the Gentiles." The preaching of the gospel to the heathen or Gentile nations during the current age, the apostle clearly declares to be the fulfillment of the promise "In thee shall all nations be blessed." The numberless millions who have been saved through the blood of Christ during this Holy Spirit dispensation- saved from heathen nations as well as from Jews-are "the children of faith," and "are blessed with faithful Abraham."

_______________________________________________________

Facts and truths are eternal principles. You cannot destroy a fact, neither can you destroy a truth. It may be possible for men, by their human reasoning and sophistry, to cover up and hide from the people the real truth, but this cannot erase it. It still remains the truth. It will stand forever. Again: Facts and truths never contradict. They never cross. A fact cannot contradict a fact. Truth CANNOT contradict a truth. All truth runs parallel. Any position or doctrine that is sustained by a single fact or truth is sustained by every other fact and truth, in the whole realm of fact and truth, that has any bearing on the subject. Any doctrine or position that is refuted or contradicted by a single fact or truth, is refuted and contradicted by every other fact and truth that relates to the subject. If it should develop during this investigation that I can sustain the position I occupy—with a single fact or truth, then remember that every other fact and truth that has any bearing upon the subject in debate sustains my position. And if I shall bring to bear against the position of my respondent a single fact or truth, then all other facts and truths contradict his position. - H.M. Rigle

 2014/2/17 2:01Profile
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1800


 Re: savannah - the nation of Israel and the cross (edited again)

(I edited my reply a bit more and got rid of some typos and shortened things a bit and tried to adjust some of my own words because my attitude may not have been altogether correct. Apologies from here.)

I'm hoping that you kept in mind that in my original post I stated, "Regarding the dealings of God with Jews and Jerusalem in the latter days, he mentions that they are of interest to "to all those who see the importance which God attaches to that place and people." I realize all may not attach a equal degree of importance to them but yet many do and I suppose I'm sharing so as to share with them." So while trying to respectfully acknowledge that some may disagree, I identified those I was posting to and trying to share with. I wasn't necessarily looking for a reaction from those who may disagree.

I can try and address some of the basic issues you raised.

You wrote,

"Abraham was not only the father of the literal "nation" (Israel), but the promise said, "Thou shalt be the father of many nations." This is fulfilled in the Christian dispensation. "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: . . . Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (as it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations) " (Rom. 4 :13-17). Nothing is plainer than the fact so clearly stated in this text, that the promise of God to make Abraham a father of many nations has a spiritual fulfillment in the New Testament dispensation. God is making all nations children of Abraham by bringing them into the faith of the gospel."

Me: The fact that God is making all nations children of Abraham by bringing them into the faith of the gospel is a clear statement of the obvious that I believe most Christians are aware of (Matt 25:19-20, Rom 16:25-26).

Further on,

"I desire the reader to note that Paul shows clearly that "if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect."

Me: I've always believed that.

You also wrote,

"This most decisively proves that since the passing of the legal age, the Jew enjoys no privilege above the Gentile. All this modern talk about "the chosen seed," "Jehovah's covenant people," "his own elect," "Zion" "Jerusalem," etc., and the application of all this to the literal nation of the Jews, is squarely against Paul's teaching. These terms applied to Israel under the law but never under the gospel.

Me: I know that many have been taught that when you see the term Zion and Jerusalem in the OT and especially in OT prophecy that it refers to the church but that is not my own view. Meanwhile, I am a Christian and part of the believing body of Christ because I was allowed to participate in a covenant and promises made with "the chosen seed." I have been allowed to particpate in a covenant and promises made to "Jehovah's covenant people." I am a participating member of the body of Christ because I am participating in a covenant and promises made with "his own elect." Meanwhile, I'm not an expert but my word studies have shown that Zion has always been identified in scripture as Jerusalem and Jerusalem can safely be referred to as Zion since it is so portrayed in scripture.

You wrote,

In this dispensation, "he IS NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly"-Rom. 2:28. That is, the literal seed counts for nothing. The only Jew now recognized is he "which is ONE INWARDLY"-v. 29. This the apostle defines as "that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter"-(ibid.)."

Me: Tregelles believed that also as well as I. In my understanding and in my readings I've never come across those who believe in God's latter day dealings with Israel who believe that being the literal seed counts for anything. It's being part of the redeemed literal seed that is going to count.

You said,

"A moral change wrought in our hearts by the Spirit of God makes Jews of us all, and all such constitute the "Israel of God"-Gal. 6:16. "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called."

Me: I know where you are coming from regardng the moral change but I don't agree entirely with the Spirit of God "making us all Jews." I believe Romans was written to the church at large in Rome but Romans 2:28-29 was addressed in particular to the Jewish believers in Rome. I didn't become a Jew when I became a believer. My view is that I remain a Gentile who has undergone the same inner transformation that a Jew does when he believes in Christ. I heard it said that it must confuse Jews to hear Christians say in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile but at the same time hear them say when we become Christians we all become Jews. I can agree with that. Through the research of others, I discovered that out of approximately 200 times the word "Jew" is used in the New Testament it is never used to describe all believers who come to Christ regardless of their national origin. That is a fascinating subject to discuss. Meanwhile, I'm content that I have been grafted in to promises made to one particular nation and their root still supports me.

Later,

"Those who are of the flesh, these ARE NOT the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed"-Rom. 9:6-8 Who are the children of the promise? Here is Paul's answer, "Even US, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles"-vs. 24.

Me: I believe that.

You said,

'Under the law, the Jews were the Lord's peculiar, chosen people, his holy nation (Exod. 33 :16; 34 :12-14; Deut. 14:1, 2). Since the passing of that dispensation, no nation enjoys this privilege except the "spiritual house" of God, which is the church, called out from among all nations (1 Pet. 2:5); and of the Christian church it is said, Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; . . . which in time past were not people, but are now the people of God"-vs. 9, 10."

Me: Yet the spiritual house of God which is the church is drawn from and finds its origins in a covenant and promises made to one peculiar and particular people. The new covenant doesn't change that. The spiritual house of believers made up of Jews and Gentiles is still made up of those who benefit from promises made to Israel. That's not to say that there is not equal access to the promises and the Father by both groups. There is equal acceptance and equal access and that's part of the glory of the mystery that Paul spoke of in Ephe 3:6 - the Gentiles won't one day be in but are NOW participating in the promises in Christ. Amen!

You wrote,

"National distinctions ceased at the cross of Christ. Then and there Israel ceased to be God's nation."

Me: That's a direct contradiction of many scriptures, Jeremiah 31:35-37 being some of the more prominent, and many would say is as close to error as one can get if it is not outright error itself. Ephe 2:12-13 mentions that,

12 - remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world,

13 - But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Brought near to what? The covenants of promise (verse 12) made to Israel with Christ and His redemption as the costly pearl of greatest value. Since the Gentiles were before excluded from the commonwealth of Israel then to obtain the promises they had to become part of and members of the commonwealth of Israel. And of course it means they had to become not just members of Israel but members of believing Israel!

16 - and might reconcile them both in one body to God, through the cross... (Ephe 2:16)

In light of this, where did Israel cease to be God's nation at the cross?

Meanwhile, Tregelles was writing of the latter days. Early on Moses wrote,

30 - When you are in distress and all these things have come upon you, in the "latter days", you will return to the Lord your God and listen to His voice.

31 - "For the Lord your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you not forget the covenant with your fathers which He swore to them." (Deut 4:30-31)

Moses spoke these words before the nation even entered the Promised Land and this astounding prophecy so far ahead of its time show that this one particular nation would be experiencing tribulation even into the latter days of this age. And verse 31 shows it is the covenant God made with them that will be that which the eschatological issues concerning them revolve around. The result is that they will return to the Lord their God. This and the details revealed in the scriptures surrounding these latter day dealings with this particular nation is what Tregelles was speaking of in the brief excerpt I shared.

You later wrote,

"The seventy weeks determined upon the Jews and the sacredness their city, foretold in Dan. 9:24, had been numbered, and since that time "they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham" (Gal. 3 :7). "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (v. 26). "And ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs cording to the promise" (v. 29). "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise" (chap. 4:28). every convert of the cross, from the dawn of this dispensation to its close, helps to constitute the great spiritual family of Abraham."

Me: Regarding Daniel's writings, when the heavenly messenger appeared to Daniel he spoke,

14 - "Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the "latter days", for the vision pertains to the days yet future." (Daniel 10:14)

So Daniel's people, the Jews, will figure prominently in events at the end of the age. Moses previously affirmed this in the context of the covenant God made with them (Deut 4:31).

You wrote,

"The spiritual seed of Abraham under the gospel greatly outnumber the literal seed under the law (see Gal. 4:27). in other words, the new covenant church composed of Jews and Gentiles who are "born of the Spirit," are more numerous than were the old covenant church "born after the flesh."." "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands" (Rev. 7:9).

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, reseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham" (Gal. 3: 7-9). "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith" (v. 14). How can men mistake these plain statements? Christ is the seed through whom the nations of earth were to be blessed. All the children of faith (both Jews and Gentiles) are the seed to whom the blessing was to come. The Christian dispensation is "the times of the Gentiles." The preaching of the gospel to the heathen or Gentile nations during the current age, the apostle clearly declares to be the fulfillment of the promise "In thee shall all nations be blessed." The numberless millions who have been saved through the blood of Christ during this Holy Spirit dispensation- saved from heathen nations as well as from Jews-are "the children of faith," and "are blessed with faithful Abraham."

Me: But again, where does "the times of the Gentiles" ever mean in Scripture that Israel ceased to be "God's nation" at the cross? That's what stumps me. At the cross the way may have been paved for an expansion of the nation to include Gentiles but I don't see how Israel ceased to be "God's nation" at the cross.

Tregelles wrote,

"What soul is there that has tasted the mercy of God, and rejoices in the grace which has been shown in the precious blood of Christ, that does not feel joy in the contemplation of this great and surpassing display of the same grace?"

Just because many in the body of Christ believe in God's latter day mercies being shown to Isarel, "a surpassing display of God's grace" as Tregelles put it, doesn't mean that they don't believe in many of the basic things you spoke of. I agree they are a good foundation to be sure.

The literal physical seed won't be part of the spiritual seed until the timme of their redemption.

The Lord's dealings with the nation of Israel in the latter days is a constant eschatological theme of the prophets (beginning with Moses) that can't be spiritualized away or explained away in my opinion.

Thank you.

I tried to shorten things a bit but I've never been accused of being able able to write short posts to begin with so I apologize again.


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David Winter

 2014/2/18 7:53Profile
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1800


 Thank you budgie

You wrote,

"A really brilliant book to read by Samuel Tregelles is the book called
The Hope of Christs Second Coming.
I would recommend all to read as it is brilliantly presented and very applicable for today just as much as it was back in the 1800s.
Please read."

Thank you for the excellent recommendation bro and I will do just that.


_________________
David Winter

 2014/2/20 0:24Profile





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