Poster | Thread | seekinggod Member
Joined: 2004/3/3 Posts: 54 Fond du Lac, WI
| Hell | | Friends,
If this issue has been addressed, please point me to a previous thread and excuse my oversight. I rarely post here.
Last year I fell into some hard times as I began to study Biblical hell. I stumbled upon www.tentmaker.org, and began digesting articles. The arguements seemed pretty solid, but I wanted the views from the other side of the fence. I could never find any quality scholarly resources.
Any recommendations? Most books on hell that I find never address the Greek or Hebrew, nor the issues presented at Tentmaker, but rather begin with the foundation that eternal hell exists and build their arguements from this point upward.
I am looking for some "from the ground up" materials. One that can shed some insight on the Old Testament view of hell, as to why Jesus choose the words he did (Gehenna, et al), and why they mean hell as we know it.
Thanks and God bless! _________________ Steve
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| 2005/4/4 19:46 | Profile | RobertW Member
Joined: 2004/2/12 Posts: 4636 St. Joseph, Missouri
| Re: Hell | | Hi seekingGod,
Here is a good start: [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4048&forum=36#27159]HELL: The District of Damnation[/url]
God Bless,
-Robert _________________ Robert Wurtz II
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| 2005/4/4 21:13 | Profile | Smokey Member
Joined: 2005/2/21 Posts: 417 Edmonton Alberta Cda.
| Re: Hell | | Tentmaker is a very suspect site. It is not one that I would reccomend to anyone. Tread carefully. (edited addition) I am not sure what the denominational foundation is of the Tentmaker site, perhaps Adventist? Greg :-? _________________ Greg
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| 2005/4/4 21:40 | Profile | sermonindex Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11 Posts: 39795 Canada
Online! | Re: | | Quote:
Tentmaker is a very suspect site. It is not one that I would reccomend to anyone. Tread carefully. (edited addition)
Yes as a rule I would be careful of most sites even including SermonIndex.net :-o The Holy Spirit will lead us into truth we have to fully lean on Him. I am sure there are some good articles on that site, I would recommend some text sermons on Hell which you can find in the articles section. I know Jonathan Edwards published some great ones on judgement, eternity and damnation.
1 John 2:27: But the anointing which you have recieved from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing [b]teaches you[/b] concerning [i][b]all things[/i][/b], and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. _________________ SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| 2005/4/5 1:08 | Profile | taco Member
Joined: 2004/4/27 Posts: 211
| Re: | | I think that Tentmaker is a pretty good resource. It doesn't have a denominational foundation, by the way.
But as Greg pointed out no site is worthy of our complete devoution and trust. We must rely on the spirit of God within us, and his scriptures to guide us. Not forgetting of course those around us, as it is written -'Iron sharpens iron'.
Jesus said; which one of you, if your child asked for bread would give him a stone...if you being evil give good gifts to your children how much more your heavenly Father.
Could you imagine an earthly parent tormenting their child for ever? What would be the purpose? I certainly wouldn't do it to my children! Nor yet to the children of my worst enemy nor yet to my worst enemy himself.
Most christians do indeed struggle with this doctrine (Eternal Torment) but perhaps because of tradition, peer pressure and questionable bible translation they end up toeing the party line. Although in my experience many still reserve a place for 'the larger hope' in thier innermost heart.
One of the best books to read on this matter is "The inescapable Love of God" by Thomas Talbott, a university professor. Google for it-its also available for download as a pdf for a (much) reduced price. God bless you in your seeking and in your studies.
Whichever outcome you become convinced by be ware of becoming closed to those of the opposing view. Because Universal Reconcilliation is a minority view (at least among Bible believers) there is a danger that its believers may cut them selves off from the rest of the body and develop eiter an elitist or a victim mentality-for which there is no need.
Again, Blessings. |
| 2005/4/5 5:59 | Profile | Manfred Member
Joined: 2005/4/4 Posts: 342 Continental Europe
| Re: Hell | | Some time ago I did a personal study about the words "hell" and "gehenna". I would like to submit to you a part of this study.
Gehenna and hell
The notion or idea of hell is a major problem for Christians in general, and when I say a major problem, most of us dont know that the word itself which conveys ideas is a very serious problem. In all my inquiries during this study, I havent found any satisfactory explanation of the word gehenna. I have checked most of the more popular Bible dictionaries and quite a few commentaries, as well as and this is more disturbing Bible word dictionaries; these tools which are written by qualified linguists. I will not quote these sources here as I wish not to point fingers at anyone in naming their books.
The great problem is that the word hell and the manifold ideas which it conveys is totally foreign to the Bible. One amazing thing surfaced when I looked up the way the Greek word gehenna was translated in the many Bibles I have. Most English Bibles translate gehenna by hell, but it is never thus translated in some languages like French; even in the Roman Catholic translations, in all these French versions the word given is géhenne. Now I must admit that I dont have in my study all the versions and translations that exist, I speak only of those I have; but I think that it is very significant. The question I would like to ask the Greek scholars who translate the Bible and who write dictionaries, lexicons and other study tools is: where do you get this idea of hell so as to be that free to insert it in Gods Word? I have checked two of the most famous French dictionaries about the definition of hell (enfer or enfers in French). The Larousse and the Flammarion French dictionaries say that the origin of the word in singular (enfer), is the Latin infernus and means a lower place, i.e. the netherworld. For the definition of the word in plural (les enfers) it indicates that the origin is mythological. Both dictionaries agree as to the origin of the word. In both cases, i.e. in the singular and the plural, the origin of the word is not to be found in the Bible. It comes from both mythology and the Latin culture. Now mythology has nothing to offer believers in the Lord Jesus, and Latin was the common language of the Middle Ages, an age much later than the New Testament times.
I believe that one great source of the problem is the way the translators of the Authorised Version (KJV) handled the word gehenna. To translate gehenna by hell was a very great and fatal mistake, because it gave the word a meaning completely foreign to its true Scriptural meaning. Since many English speaking believers still use the KJV today, and since many translations which have followed it have copied the inadequate translation of the word gehenna without, it seems, much inquiry as to the real meaning of the word; a concept was born in the minds of Gods people. Over the years the concept has developed into a doctrine, and one which is widely accepted, so much so that many believers would bluntly refuse even to reconsider the very existence of such a place called hell. Now I can see many of us raising arms saying that if hell doesnt exist, what is to become of the wicked and of our doctrine? The fact is that the doctrine of hell is so well accepted today that not a book on Systematic Theology is without a chapter on The Doctrine of Hell! This is quite amazing considering the origin of the word. Just to give but one example. In one such famous and recent Systematic Theology, one can read thus: Scripture teaches in several passages that there is such a place [as hell]. At the end of the parable of the talents, the master says, Cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth (Matt.25:30). This is one among several indications that there will be a consciousness of punishment after the final judgement.
Dont you find it odd that a renowned theologian would state such an aberration? Where does he see the word hell in the verse he has just quoted to prove that there is such a place?
The great problem is that even though the word hell is totally foreign to the Bible, it is a widely accepted concept. Its doctrine is being taught in all the seminaries and Bible schools, I am not surprised that so many of us fall victims to such things as: fear of losing ones salvation; of thinking that to do good deeds might help us to get out of there; of being confused as to what we call the last things; of being ignorant of such vital truths as the judgement seat of Christ and the millennium reign to come; of mixing salvation and rewards etc
Manfred |
| 2005/4/5 6:39 | Profile | formidable Member
Joined: 2004/7/3 Posts: 77 Perth, Australia
| Re: hell | | i have read a good book on this topic, as i guess most have "the road to hell", everlasting torment or annihilation by david pawson
the description on the back says "hell is the most offensize & least acceptable of all christian doctrines. we try to ignore it but it wont go away.better to face the truth even if it hurts"
most of Christs teachings on this uncomfortable subject was addressed to his followers, yet it hardly feautures in sermons today.challenging the modern alternatives of liberal"universalism" and evangelical "annihilationism" david pawson presents the traditional concept of endless torment as soundly biblical,illustrating his argument with in depth scripture studies on controversial passages.
heaven is also a reality, he affirms, but it is hell which is overlooked. he states"i am convinced that the recovery of this neglected truth is vital to the health of Christs body"
i really liked his style,how he wrote this aswel as the verses to study.
its interesting to note that Jesus talked a lot on money & hell? i highly reccomend this for a hard look at this subject.
has anyone else read it? _________________ scot
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| 2005/4/5 7:12 | Profile | Smokey Member
Joined: 2005/2/21 Posts: 417 Edmonton Alberta Cda.
| Re: hell | | Manfred After all the information you recorded here, I still do not understand what you are trying to say. I think you are trying to say that you do not believe in a literal hell?? This is one of those areas where intellectuals like to play word games, so I will not mention that word. How about we let the Word of God speak to this issue.
Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had recieved the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a LAKE OF FIRE BURNING WITH BRIMSTONE.
Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night FOREVER AND EVER.
Rev. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death. Rev. 20:15 And WHOSOEVER was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE.
Gods word clearly states that there is a LAKE OF FIRE where sinners will be cast. It sure sounds like (that place) to me.
With utmost respect: Greg _________________ Greg
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| 2005/4/5 19:16 | Profile | taco Member
Joined: 2004/4/27 Posts: 211
| Re: | | Quote:
Gods word clearly states that there is a LAKE OF FIRE where sinners will be cast. It sure sounds like (that place) to me.
Yes indeed there is a lake of fire but there is also a river of life, healing for the nations and a cry from the bride and the Spirit "he who is thirsty -Come!"
Don't confuse the process with the goal. The goal is God all in all (1 Cor 15) The lake of fire is merly part of the process.
Peace. |
| 2005/4/5 19:30 | Profile | jeremyhulsey Member
Joined: 2003/4/18 Posts: 777
| Re: | | Quote:
Don't confuse the process with the goal. The goal is God all in all (1 Cor 15) The lake of fire is merly part of the process.
So are you saying that even those in hell will eventually be saved? _________________ Jeremy Hulsey
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| 2005/4/5 19:52 | Profile |
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