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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Please give one clear scriptural verse for a pretrib resurrection

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Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Budgie, I must appologise to you because I had wrongly said it was you and Sidewalk that were implying no Rapture. It was Just in and Sidewalk I should have been adressing, not you at all.

Also I agree with what you just wrote regarding the rapture. That was the point i was making to those guys. I guess you had to shout (caps), because I misrepresented you.:)


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Dave

 2014/1/27 14:59Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Jimm,

Interesting article by watchman nee. I have been trying to say simliar in that we should not shout heresy against those who hold a different view to us on this subject. Also intersting that those ones mentioned who chaged their position went from pre to post, which is much like me, although I would not say 'post', as it can be misunderstood. I would say 'end of trib, pre-wrath. Maybe I've added another catagory! :D

By the way, what is Nee's position?


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Dave

 2014/1/27 15:06Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi Greg,
That was a mistake I made every time I read the the scripture.
Then one day God pointed this out to me on the following scriptures:

1 thess 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them who are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [a]imperishable, and we will be changed.

1.The basis that we think no one will see the rapture is that it happens so quickly ie"in a twinkling.
We will just vanish into thin air!
But look at it again the scripture only says we will "be changed" in the "twinkling"
2 The Rapture or the "going up in the as sky "will be seen by all because it is not instantaneous .It will be quick but in "minutes "rather than seconds or instant
3its all about timing if the "rapture" or "taking up" is not instantaneous then we will be able to see it as with all other translations or raptures in the bible.
The rapture will take some time "minutes" and then the changing will be in a "twinkling"

So therefore their is no secret Rapture!

Yours Staff

 2014/1/27 16:46Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi Budgie
When asked what would his coming be like?Jesus said

JUST AS IT HAPPENED(Not similar or close or roughly)but JUST

26“And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28“It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; 29but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30“It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

This scripture does not say that their is a pre tribulation rapture but it does say that a post tribulation has a problem timeline wise.

yours Staff

 2014/1/27 17:25Profile









 Re:

Hi Staff, you write...........

"This scripture does not say that their is a pre tribulation rapture but it does say that a post tribulation has a problem timeline wise."

I think there was an adequate explanation given to that point on the other thread. Now you may not have liked it :) But it was certainly adequate. Even in the darkest days of Hitlers Germany, the darkest days ever seen by man this side of the flood, people were eating and drinking and marrying while at the very same time, often just on the outskirts of their towns and villages, millions of men, women and children were being tortured and killed. It is the essence of modernism and barbarism combined and it certainly speaks to your point. If man was capable of that just 60 years ago, what will they be capable of under the leadership of the anti-christ and taken up with such a great deception that if it were possible, even the lect would be deceived...........bro Frank

 2014/1/27 18:08
Jimm
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Re:

Hey Dave

To answer your question on what's Nee's position. I will quote him and a little bit of his exegesis. As you can imagine it's a rather lengthy chapter and is not possible to summarize, but just to give you a bit of background to Nee's view I thought it prudent to share a small portion. Again this is an excerpt from THE KING AND THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN by WATCHMAN NEE:

"Our summary conclusion to all this is that the third school of interpretation seems to be the correct one—that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards" (Pg 303)

"A. Were the entire body of believers to be raptured after the Tribulation, there would again be no need for us to watch and wait and be prepared. Knowing that the Lord would not come before the end of the three and a half years’ period, we could live evilly up to three years five months and twenty-nine days. Yet such a concept violates the very principle of the Scriptures.

B. Were all of us believers to be raptured after the Great Tribulation, then our waiting would not be a waiting for Christ but for the Antichrist, since the latter must come first.

C. The church would lose her hope—“Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2.13)—for included in this hope is the blessing of escaping the Tribulation.

D. The second school of interpretation does not accept the idea of a secret rapture; yet its followers forget the word, “Behold, I come as a thief” (Rev. 16.15). A thief comes secretly, is never preceded by a band, and always steals the best.

E. This second school views the twelve disciples as being purely Christians in direct contrast with the view of the first school which considers these twelve as being merely Jews. As a matter of fact, however, these twelve disciples are Christians as well as representatives of the Jewish remnant. For example, in Matthew 10.5-6 and 23.3 we see that all have a Jewish background, a fact which is thus inapplicable to Christians.

F. There is a failure in this second school to distinguish between rapture and the appearing of the Lord. There is a difference between Christ coming for the saints and Christ coming with the saints. That which Enoch prophesied, as recorded in Jude, points to the coming of the Lord “with his holy myriads” (see Jude 14-15 mg.) when His feet step down on the Mount of Olives." (pg 297)

This is of course one of many views and I respect differences in opinion. I have read books on the subject Evangelical and Charismatic alike, but Nee to me seems very calm and methodical in his approach and is one of few books on the subject I can recommend. He also makes lengthy arguments for post-trib and pre-trib in the same book.

Jimm


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2014/1/27 19:15Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi Frank,
I think that explanation of planting,marrying etc comparing Germany is totally inadequate and anyone comparing and being honest with themselves could not equate a time where you could freely eat,drink,marry,plant,build,buy and sell with the "the great tribulation".
I guess it is up to the reader to decide whether when God is pouring out his wrath on the world bowl,vials etc the Anti Christ reign is in full swing is the same time described by Jesus as time of eating,planting building marrying,buying and selling.
But it not up to the reader to decide on the following as we know it without having to decide because Jesus said it clearly.
JUST like in the days of Noah and Lot Judgement did not come until after Lot went out and it was immediately after they left.
This leaves a problem with the timeline.
Yours Staff

 2014/1/27 20:15Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re: Dismissive?

What I meant about dismissive is the fact that unbelievers dismiss the entire gospel message when they encounter one part that is off the wall. The rapture doctrine has no viable stream in scripture, is has no real precedent in the historical record that directs a new believer to see some logic. On the other hand, Jesus Himself did demonstrate rapture on the Mount of Transfiguration. He was physically raptured, and we can envision that to some degree.

My emphasis in all this is that the Holy Spirit is working right now, bringing us to a point in history where we will be caught up, literally, to the place where Jesus is, clothed with immortality, perfected in His image. We will be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. The cloud is the larger body of believers who have gone before us and we will join them in the cloud. This is a cloud of witnesses, and predates the modern internet term.

We can argue about the details of flying off into the sky, but my spirit seems to be much more attuned to the restoration of the earth under its temporary curse. I look for the blessed work described in Psalm 149.


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Tom Cameron

 2014/1/27 20:37Profile









 Re:

HI Staff, we can certainly agree to disagree. There are birth pangs and judgments poured out indeed and the world will just keep getting more rebellious, much like the anger that built up in Pharoah as each plague came upon Egypt. Yet, there is a final judgment, this is when the saints who are still alive meet Jesus in the sky and Christ comes and judges all. So, the saints who are still alive are taken out and then the judgment after the tribulation......bro Frank

 2014/1/27 22:14
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: 1260 days

Many have not studied the book of Revelations and all of the other prophetic books and placed in proper perspective the timeframes.
No where in scripture does it say that at the end of 1260 days exactly does Jesus Christ return, no where does it state that. Jesus certainly did not say that. Jesus stated some events that would take place AFTER the tribulation but how many days we do not know.
What it does clearly show is that the Antichrist that will be arising from out of the midst of the people will be working and He does not receive His power until the Abomination of Desolation takes place then He is given power for only 1260 days in the middle of the 7 year peace treaty, he appears as a wonderful and intriguing man before that 1260 days he then exalts himself as God(he is only given power for 1260 days) it does not say that at the end of the 1260 days he then dies or is killed at exactly that point, also the 2 witnesses are only given power for 1260 days and then at the end of that 1260 days they lay dead for 3 1/2 days then they are raised from the dead.So there is at least a 3 1/2 days after the 1260 days. The Gentiles are only given 1260 days to trample Jerusalem, the people that flee into the wilderness are protected for 1260 days then what? There is still a time frame that takes place after the 1260 days, the beast loses his power, the 2 witnesses are gone.
Jesus said this
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
AND HE ALSO SAID THIS
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
So there is a small timeframe that takes place after the Tribulation of those days, that tribulation ends and then after that there are signs in Heaven but we are not given that timeframe???? is it a week or is it a month// whatever it is it is immediately after the Tribulation, there is no mention of anything else.
DANIEL talks about some of the timeframe
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Lets not date set, LET US ALL ENCOURAGE EACH OTHER AS THE TIME APPROACHES SO THAT WE MAY ALL BE STANDING WITH CHRIST AND EACH OTHER ON THAT BLESSED DAY OF THE RESURRECTION OF THE JUST

 2014/1/28 6:12Profile





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