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budgie
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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Still waiting for a clear verse that states a pretrib resurrection

Here is a very clear verse on a post trib gathering together to Jesus at the sound of a trumpet and a shout and at the coming of Christ

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There are many other verses in Old Testament and new testament that support these same verses and are just as clear.

Please provide verses not theories

To those that support a theory on pretrib please provide very clear proof in the way of scriptural verses that states a pretrib gathering or pretrib resurrection.
Let us reason together.
I can say again that there is not one clear verse that supports a pretrib resurrection.
This is what Paul stated in Thessalonians.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, my brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Th 2:2 that you should not be soon shaken in mind or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word or letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.

Paul is talking about the Coming of Jesus and our gathering together to Him.
In the Greek this (and) is joining the 2 words and events together, His coming and our gathering together are intrinsically linked and cannot be separated.
This event has not happened yet but it will happen on one day , Jesus refers to it as a day, it is a day when He will come and we will be gathered to Him the exact same as Jesus states at His coming and gathering in Matthew 24.
Paul then goes on to say that this day of Christ Coming and our gathering together cannot come until the following events happen.
1. The apostasia
2. The revealing of the son of perdition that know one yet knows who he is.
And Jesus then clearly states that on that day of His Coming He will destroy the son of perdition, this aligns with Daniel, Joel, and Revelations exactly there is no conflict with the verses.

 2014/1/27 6:07Profile









 Re: Still waiting for a clear verse that states a pretrib resurrection

Bro I am still waiting on that one verse other than those taken out if 1 Cor. 13 that support cessationism. I think we both know that neither a pretrib rapture nor the cessation of the sign gifts can be defended from the scriptures.:)

Bear.

 2014/1/27 6:28
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re:

Well said Bearmaster
We must stand firm on what the scriptures say not the Doctrines of man. It is Gods plan from the foundation of the world, He wants a people that would Love Him and Live by His Power.
Let us search the scriptures and the truth of God diligently. None of us knows all of the Truth of God but what we do know as Truth we must declare.
So much harm has come from the false doctrines of man.

 2014/1/28 6:30Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re:

Is there a great defender of a Pretrib resurrection that can provide a clear scriptural verse of scripture that states that the Resurrection of the dead takes place before the Tribulation and also any clear verse that states that there is more than a resurrection of the Just and a Resurrection of the unjust as taught by Jesus, Paul, John, 2 Resurrections the same as is clearly stated in the Book of revelations.Revelations even tells us when the First Resurrection takes place.
Let us get deep into the word and see if the theory that we believe is actually truth, we must be able to defend the Doctrine of the Resurrection with scripture.
There are many and I say many that believe in a pretrib theory that have never truly studied in great depth each verse, instead there is a twisting of the verse to support a troublesome theory, an example of this is the following verse.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
How many people agree with this one verse or are they trying to twist it and say that it is not the first Resurrection. The Resurrection of the Just is the Resurrection of the Just and that Resurrection takes place in the twinkling of an eye.
How many people even believe in the thousand years??

 2014/1/28 6:42Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: Still waiting for a clear verse that states a pretrib resurrection

You quoted one.
Mat 24

pay attention that the saints are in heaven during the GT,and that angels,NOT Jesus are gathering.

You are inadvertently rejecting the postrib notion.

 2014/3/16 16:58Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: Still waiting for a clear verse that states a pretrib resurrection

Been debating postrib for years,and have never seen them come up with a verse that says the rapture takes place after the GT.

Not even one verse. Perplexing.

In fact,I have never seen one of them recognize that the postrib rapture is an impossibility.It can not possibly happen.

It says clearly that the AC kills every single human being that refuses the mark.Every single human on the planet.
So how is there anyone to rapture?
The huge clue is "a number no man can number,murdered DURING THE GT.

To top it off,the martyrs are commanded to stay under the altar "until their number is fulfilled"
The fact they are now out from under it can only mean that the number is fulfilled.

Why are the 144k first fruits?
They are now part of the 1st resurrection.THEY ARE THE 1ST FRUITS (jews)after the fulfilled number from the slaughter by AC.
(which further demolishes the rev 20 misaplication of "1st resurrection")

This really puts to rest the rev 20 1st fruits error.

 2014/3/16 17:14Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: Still waiting for a clear verse that states a pretrib

Likewise we are still waiting for a postrib adherant to interpret the 10 virgin parable.

 2014/3/18 0:28Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5390
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote: "Likewise we are still waiting for a postrib adherant to interpret the 10 virgin parable."

I think I can do it without mentioning the rapture at all.

Here goes:

1)Virgin: in scripture this = a covenant person who is faithful to God, vs those who run after other Gods.

2)This parable is not about 5 virgins and 5 harlots- ALL are virgins

3)Therefore all 10 are covenant people faithful to God

4) All virgins falls asleep, so the issue is not watchfulness. The issue is that 5 were shortsighted.

5) They are foolish because their efforts to stay faithful to God under the Old Covenant system is futile.

6)The oil is representative of the Holy Spirit. Both groups of virgins would run out of oil (Spirit) but one group (believers in Jesus) would have a fresh supply always at hand.

7) The Old Covenant system was totally and finally eradicated when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, although in reality it was done away with when Jesus died and resurrected. The period between 33 AD and 70 AD was a transition period and the old covenant system was obsolete and gradually fading away.

8) Persons under the old covenant system who did not believe in Jesus would run out of oil fully and finally in 70 AD.

9)At AD 70 those persons who were trying to be faithful to God under the old covenant were like foolish virgins; the old covenant was fading away at that time. Those who were not replenishing their measure of the Spirit under the new covenant (see Jeremiah. 31:31-34) would run out of oil at 70 AD. These foolish virgins would miss out on the marriage to the bridegroom and wind up being shut out of the Kingdom (see Matt. 25:12; and Luke 16:1-4), which is given to another people at that time (Matt. 21:40-43).


_________________
Todd

 2014/3/18 18:43Profile
wayneman
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Joined: 2009/1/24
Posts: 454
Michigan

 Re:

it would be hilarious if the Bridegroom returned now and found all the virgins brawling about end time prophecy.


_________________
Wayne Kraus

 2014/3/18 20:34Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: TMK

"1)Virgin: in scripture this = a covenant person who is faithful to God, vs those who run after other Gods."
Very close.Virgin would designate purity or the absence of defilement. IOW all 10 are righteous,or born again.
(remember basic Christianity="saved by the blood of Jesus".

"2)This parable is not about 5 virgins and 5 harlots- ALL are virgins."
Very observant.We give you an 'a' for awake.

"3)Therefore all 10 are covenant people faithful to God"
OK,I will buy that (no pun intended)

"4) All virgins falls asleep, so the issue is not watchfulness. The issue is that 5 were shortsighted."
Well sort of.But you neglect the obvious,that the issue is a lack of oil,period,for whatever "reason"

"5) They are foolish because their efforts to stay faithful to God under the Old Covenant system is futile."
Nope. They are foolish because they did not take the extra oil,which prohibited their entry to the wedding chamber.
No way to make that leap you just did.

"6)The oil is representative of the Holy Spirit. Both groups of virgins would run out of oil (Spirit) but one group (believers in Jesus) would have a fresh supply always at hand."
Nope,they went and got more,but beyond that,the wise COULD have given some of theirs but the time/season prohibited it.
But you did get it right that the oil represents the HS.
The fact that they did get more,and the wise instructed them of their obvious course of action,plus the fact the oil is transferable(as is the HS),prevents what you say as being consistent with this short illustration Jesus paints.

7),8)>>>> have nothing to do with the parable,absolutely nothing.

"9)At AD 70 those persons who were trying to be faithful to God under the old covenant were like foolish virgins; the old covenant was fading away at that time. Those who were not replenishing their measure of the Spirit under the new covenant (see Jeremiah. 31:31-34) would run out of oil at 70 AD. These foolish virgins would miss out on the marriage to the bridegroom and wind up being shut out of the Kingdom (see Matt. 25:12; and Luke 16:1-4), which is given to another people at that time (Matt. 21:40-43)."

has nothing even remotely to do with the OT.
No,they are not shut out of the Kingdom.They are shut out of the wedding chamber,but later,do enter.
They are all 10 the SAME,exactly the SAME.They all had oil.
The wise had MORE oil.

The parable is overly simple,too simple to understand.
Nobody FROM the OT is here with us today waiting for the bridegroom.In fact,most are not waiting at all.

 2014/3/18 22:43Profile





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