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budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: PSALM1

Hello Psalm1

I appreciate your honesty and enjoy your feedback

You bring up some interesting points of discussion, you asked the question how can those in heaven experience all of the physical elements without their New immortal bodies as you said they are spirits.

John was in the spirit when he was shown the book of revelation, he was in the spirit when he was taken up to heaven, in this state of being in the spirit he saw, heard, talked, wept, tasted sweetness of a book then bitterness in his stomach, he was given a book, he was given a reed to measure the temple, he wondered, he experienced awe, he saw things in heaven and on earth, all while in the spirit.

In Luke we have the parable of paradise and hell and are given clear emotions as follows, eyes that look up, feeling of torment, seeing eyes, hearing, talking, fingers, tongue, heat, comfort, and pray

So I do think it is possible to experience all while not in the Resurrected immortal body

Scripture does say that Jesus and only Jesus was the Firstfruit of the Resurrection and that the Resurrection of all men in Christ will be afterward at His coming.

In Revelation 20 it speaks of the 1st Resurrection of a resurrection where they live and reign for a 1000 yr with Jesus, that being the case this Resurrection is something that happens at one time in a twinkling of an eye because it says they live and reign for a 1000 years, it does not say that they lived and reign for 1000 and 7 years.

Also as I have already said in the Old Testament there are many references to the whole earth where in actual fact it is referring to a kingdom with boundaries only

Daniel 2:10 the chaldeans told the king that there was no one on the whole earth that could interpret the dream, did they really travel the whole earth to find out or was it a kingdom.

Daniel 2:38 it says that Greece ruled the whole earth, did Greece really rule the whole earth? of course not it was a kingdom

Daniel 4:1 states that the king was the king of all peoples, nations and languages that dwell in all of the earth/?? this of course is only referring to the earth that the Babylonian kingdom governed

That being the case the 4th Beast, the antichrist Kingdom will also be ruling a kingdom, not a whole global earth, the Antichrist will physically be in the middle eastern kingdom, the plagues etc will be mainly in that area as this is the judgement taking place because of the many servants of God whose blood has been shed in that area

Can you provide a verse that says that the old testament saints were resurrected in the ist resurrection if the 1st Resurrection has not happened yet.

If that was the case then it would be saying that they lived and reigned with Christ for 3000 years approx.

Where in scripture does it say that anybody has been raised in an immortal body with Jesus, Paul said that Jesus was the only one, paul said that Jesus was the firstfruit.

Where also does it say that the marriage of the lamb is over ??

What it does say is that the bride has made herself ready and that the marriage is come which means it is about to start and the following verses show the Coming of Jesus for the 1st resurrection

 2014/3/20 1:38Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Hi budge!
I also enjoy speaking to you IMMENSELY!!!
This subject is so,so fascinating.

"Also as I have already said in the Old Testament there are many references to the whole earth where in actual fact it is referring to a kingdom with boundaries only"

The bible is written under the inspiration of the HS.
This logic assumes the Lord does not know as much as us.

"In Luke we have the parable of paradise and hell and are given clear emotions as follows, eyes that look up, feeling of torment, seeing eyes, hearing, talking, fingers, tongue, heat, comfort, and pray"
that was not a parable.It was real.

"So I do think it is possible to experience all while not in the Resurrected immortal body"
Can you show me anything to confirm this?


"Where also does it say that the marriage of the lamb is over ??"
It says in rev 19 the bride has become the wife.
There are maybe 20 or so things that pint to the marrige/bride/groom/believers in heaven,with a wedding.

Using your methods of testing doctrine ( i do not believe this a viable method) which you use (proving a negative)
show me where it specifically says different.Show me where anyone was corrected.(in the word)


"Can you provide a verse that says that the old testament saints were resurrected in the ist resurrection if the 1st Resurrection has not happened yet."

Jesus decended,it says he took captivity captive.It says the dead were resurrected and were seen walking the streets.
Can look up later,too busy right now.

 2014/3/20 11:30Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: PSALM1

Thanks again for your responses PSALM1

I am slowly trying to catch up and address one by one some things that you have said

You said on your post the following

I already showed you their is no possible way a post rapture can happen.It is impossible.The AC kills ALL,emphatically ALL who refuse the mark.It even says every human being on the planet.

My Budgie reply
I looked this up in scripture and could not find what you said anywhere, I could not find where it says that the AC kills ALL who refuse the mark in the whole planet, a little bit of an overstatement.

But there is one very important thing I would like to bring out in this discussion and that is as follows

Jesus said the following

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

These are the beginning of sorrows and they are in diverse places as we see today

BUT as to the Tribulation that will be Jesus clearly talks about when but also where, many overlook this fact and assume it means the whole world, lets look at what Jesus says

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Jesus is talking about the abomination in Jerusalem and saying let those in Judea flee.

He does not say let those in America flee, or let those in England flee, or let those in Australia flee.

That is because the Antichrist is in middle east.

Babylon did not rule the whole world, Greece did not rule the whole world, media Persia did not rule the whole world and neither did Rome, only their kingdom area.

It is exactly the same with the Antichrist, Daniel, Matthew, Joel, Revelations, Thessalonians all say very clearly that these events of rule by the antichrist and the tribulation are happening in and around the area of Jerusalem.

Jesus gave clear instructions for those in Judea to flee because of the Tribulation to come, Jesus again in Revelations asks those believers living in the whore city to leave as He is about to bring judgement to that city.

We must never forget that Jesus in His word has so clearly spoken of the places, names of cities and regions that the Antichrist rules and makes war.

Daniel, Joel, Revelations and Matthew as well as Thessalonians and many other books are very specific about where this kingdom is and what countries are involved.

No America, no England no Australia, No New Zealand, no other islands mentioned.

It is important to keep in context with what scriptures say about where this Tribulation is, there is a difference.

If Antichrist destroys all who do not have the mark and Jesus destroys all who have the mark then who is left ??

It says Jesus will rule the nations from the four quarters of the earth for a 1000 years

How can He Rule nations if there is no one left in existence if the above is true.

 2014/3/20 19:06Profile









 Re:

Surprised to see this thread still active. Then Budgie would you accept the conclusion of Wahid Shoebot who says the A.C. will be a Moslem.

Seems like your post reflects some of his thinking.

Blaine

 2014/3/20 19:34
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: hello bearmaster


Hello Bearmaster
Good to hear from you again, I as well as many others don't believe every thing that people say as we are all learning.

But I do agree with much of Walid Shoebat, as well as Joel Richardson when it come to who and where this antichrist spirit and person starts.

Both Walid and Joel bring out some very truthful and scriptural points regarding the antichrist and the teachings of the antichrist

Joel has brought out a 4 dvd set called the return is near and I can truly recommend this dvd set to all believers

I could not find any fault with the set and Joel brings out some very true points that makes a lot of sense scripturally as well as logically.

For far to long the Catholic believers have been portrayed as evil and wicked people and the Islamic focus makes much more sense and also aligns with prophecy

especially the antichrist spirit that declares that they deny the father and the son

I can guarantee that there is no perfect church on this earth today, they have committed just as much wickedness in the name of Christ as Israel did with God.

Homosexuality, fornication, divorce, legal disputes, adultery and much more exists in the church today as in the world

God have mercy on us.

Youtube has some good videos by Joel Richardson as well as Walid Shoebat

Joel Richardson website Joels Trumpet is worth looking at, much interesting and thought provoking stuff

There is a good series of videos that Joel did in a series in a church, on you tube

 2014/3/20 20:50Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: To PSALM1

Hello PSALM1

I am interested to know

Do you see the book of revelations as being totally chronological, and if so why

or

do you see the book of revelations being overlapping and why

As to the above there is no rush to reply

I would appreciate an insight on how you see the seals, trumpets and bowls and any key points among them

 2014/3/20 22:40Profile
David01-72
Member



Joined: 2012/3/23
Posts: 58
Texas

 Re: Budgie

Hi Budgie and Psalm1

I have some questions to budgie. Do you believe that "The Great Tribulation " will only be in Isreal and countries surounded by her? Or will it affect the whole world including the Americas, UK, Australia, exc? And can you please explain?

You said,

"BUT as to the Tribulation that will be Jesus clearly talks about when but also where, many overlook this fact and assume it means the whole world, lets look at what Jesus says

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Jesus is talking about the abomination in Jerusalem and saying let those in Judea flee."


I agree that Mat 24:15-21 is talking directly to Israel. Jesus was warning them and majority were Jews who were listening.

You said,
"That is because the Antichrist is in middle east.

Babylon did not rule the whole world, Greece did not rule the whole world, media Persia did not rule the whole world and neither did Rome, only their kingdom area."

This is true but I thought about them having the power to rule the whole world.

Also, if the great tribulation only going to happen in Israel and the countries around her, then why does other scriptures like in Rev 13:12 says "causeth the earth and them which dwell therein" to worship the beast or not they will be killed?

I know its kind of off topic but just wanted to be more clear about what you've said.

Thank you and God Bless
David C.




_________________
David Cisneros

 2014/3/21 3:57Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

The strength in the pretrib rapture;

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

My comfort, my spirit, my rapture, my new born again life by the Christ Spirit in me. Caught up together now in spirit and will be raptured in body and soul.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Who is wise? Who is righteousness? Who is sanctified? Who is redeemed?

Those God has made to be birthed in Christ.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

We are His own, even sons and daughters of God our Father in Christ Jesus who is not Spirit of my spirit and will be Flesh of my glorified new body in raptured resurrection and new life in Him.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This is my comfort; Amen

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2014/3/21 13:27Profile









 Re: Renaming thread

Since their are other topics coming up for discussion regarding the end times I have decided to rename the thread. Much easier then opening up new threads.

Blaine

 2014/3/21 13:51
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Reply to David01-72

Hello David01-72

You have asked some questions regarding end times

I certainly do not have all of the answers and certainly do not know all truth, but with what I do have and from what I have learned along this journey I will endeavour to answer.

Your question

Hi Budgie and Psalm1

I have some questions to budgie. Do you believe that "The Great Tribulation " will only be in Isreal and countries surounded by her? Or will it affect the whole world including the Americas, UK, Australia, exc? And can you please explain?

My reply'

From my studies in the Old Testament books as well as New Testament regarding end times one thing that I have seen is that many of the prophecies relate to Jerusalem and the surrounding countries or nations.

Daniel, Joel, Thessalonians, Matthew, Revelations, Zechariah, Isaiah and more speak of the events, persons and countries where these events take place.

Genesis begins in the area surrounding Jerusalem and Revelations ends in Jerusalem and the areas surrounding Jerusalem.

Many of the End Time events are spoken of as happening in these same areas.

From what is shown in the Prophetic books much is focused in the above areas.

Jesus states that when you see the abomination of desolation take place in Jerusalem then those in Judea should flee for then there will be Tribulation such as that has never been seen before or ever seen again after.

For this reason as well as what is shown in Thessalonians and Revelations I do believe that the majority of that will take place in the areas surrounding Jerusalem.

But I do also believe that there will be some form of suffering in all of the world for those in Christ as well as those that live on the earth.

One only has to look at history as to events that have happened in Jerusalem as well as the conflict that is happening with the Islamic nations surrounding Jerusalem.

John said that the spirit of the Antichrist is to deny the Father and the Son and that is exactly what Islam declares.

On the inside of the dome of the rock is written God has no Son.

I do love Muslims just as much as I do others in the world and do pray and hope that they will turn to the One True God and worship Jesus Christ the one and only saviour.

After studying Daniel and looking at the location of the Kingdoms in all of Daniel one can see that when it says the whole earth sometimes this refers only to the Kingdom of that ruling Authority on Earth.

An example of this is Daniel said that the Kingdom of Greece ruled the whole earth.
But looking at History one can see that the kingdom of Greece did not encompass the whole earth,and ceratainly did not rule the whole earth, there are many other areas in scripture where we see the same.

For this reason I am cautious with those statements, I will not be dogmatic but one thing I have learned is that it can have two meanings.

It can mean an area on earth and it can also mean the whole earth.

One thing I do know is that when Jesus comes He will rule the whole Earth and it will be from the Centre of the Earth Jerusalem.

Because there are nations on earth that remain after Christ returns , as it does say that He will rule the Nations with a Rod of Iron with the saints, there has to be many people left on earth that have not worshipped the Beast or received the Mark of its name, that being the case there has to also be Christians also alive on the Earth at His Glorious Coming as Paul refers to these believers that are alive that they will have their bodies changed when the dead are raised.

I will try and answer more as we go along.

Like I said I will not be dogmatic and say that the Earth means the Whole world and I also will not say that the earth only means part of the earth such as a kingdom in Daniel.

I allow for freedom in this area.

The Book of Revelations does speak a lot of the areas surrounding Jerusalem, Satan when He is thrown to earth uses the Antichrist as his means of power and this antichrist reigns in this region.

The City called the whore that is destroyed by the 10 kings or kingdoms is also in this region.

Some say it is Babylon (Iraq) some say Saudia Arabia

Saudia Arabia certainly fits the descriptions at present because of its wealth and prosperity.

I hope this has answered some of your question in a little way.

Joel Richardson (the return is near) 4 dvd set is worth looking at VERY WELL PRESENTED

 2014/3/24 2:40Profile





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