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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Discussion of the Pretrib Rapture and Other End Time Topics

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 Re:

David good question. I was wondering about that myself. Got to moderate a orayer call now. But give me some time to think on that and I will post ny thoughts in a day it two.

Bro Bear.

 2014/1/26 21:04
budgie
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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: david C comment

The sign of the Son of man coming is spoken of in verse 27
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

There will be a shining light that is brighter than any lightning and will fill the whole world, it will shine from the east to the west, there will be no darkness, we saw a picture of this only a few months ago when that meteor hit Russia during the day

it then goes on to say they shall see the Son of Man

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 2014/1/27 5:54Profile
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

Online!
 Re:

I am very wary of anyone who claims that they have all the details and sequence of events of the end times all sorted out. Since I became a Christian 32 years ago I have been exposed to in depth teaching about the end times and particularly in the early years this has been from a pre-tribulation perspective. Despite various teachers claiming to know all the details, I see many flaws and inconsistencies in many of these.

The pre-trib; post trib or pre-wrath debate would only apply to those who take the literal pre-millennial view of the end times. You have all the others who take an allegorical view of end time prophecy for who this debate would be irrelevant. I take the literal pre-millennial view.

For my part I see a good argument in saying that the resurrection or rapture of the saints takes place at the same time as the second coming as detailed in Matthew 24 as others have already commented. However we have to then define the second coming events and there is more to the return of Jesus Christ than His actual appearing, there is the outpouring of His wrath upon the earth in such catastrophic ways that accompanying His return. These would be separate to His actual appearing, but very much part of His return in judgement. I'm talking about the bowls of wrath judgement in Revelation 16 which occur just prior to Christ's return.

When folk talk about 'the tribulation' they commonly mean a seven year period starting in Revelation 6 and finishing in Revelation 19. Terms commonly used are not necessarily helpful. 'Post tribulation' needs to be defined as it cannot mean 'post return of Christ' and we Know from Rev 19 that Christ returns in the midst of the outpouring of His wrath. In Matthew 24:29-31 it says 'after the tribulation (trouble) of those days there will be signs and shaking of the heavens and a sign of Christ coming in the clouds and He will send out His angels with a trumpet sound (last trumpet according to Paul) to gather His elect'. Firstly we see that 'after the tribulation (trouble) of those days' there are still major signs and shaking of the heavens taking place. Compare this to Revelation 14:14-16 where there is a reaping of the harvest by 'one like the son of man'. I don't see this reaping as judgment as it is a harvest. The second reaping in vs 17-20 is a reaping of judgement. Now this reaping of the harvest takes place immediately after the last trumpet in Rev 11:15-19 which interesting proclaims "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ". In other words This is the start of the second coming of Christ to take His kingdom. So from this I see how this agrees with the things Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 about the lord coming to gather His people 'in the air' at the last trumpet. We also see that the marriage of the lamb is declared to have come at this point in Revelation 19 before the Lord returns to execute the final judgement, but NOT before the tribulation as is often said.

So in summary, what I see is a return of Christ for His church at His second coming, but prior to the outpouring of wrath as detailed in Revelation 16, which I understand to be at the very end of this 7 year tribulation period and all part of His return. So that would mean that those saints that are around during this time will suffer persecution and tribulation as laid out in the book, but be gathered to the Lord before the final wrath of God upon the earth. So there is one return, but different events taking place for different groups of people during this time.

I'm sure there will be flaws found in what I have written, but that is what I can see at the moment.


_________________
Dave

 2014/1/27 7:03Profile
budgie
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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: in answer to HeyDave request

Re: Reply To This Post |

Budgie,
Very comprehensive list you have given. If you could give the scripture references to all your points that would be helpful.

Hello Heydave

You asked for this list of verses, it is quite comprehensive but can be copied and pasted to a Word Document for further study and feedback

THE PLUMBLINE FOR THE CORRECT DOCTRINE ON THE RESURRECTION

In Hebrews 6:1-2 we see that the doctrine of the Resurrection is one of the Elementary and Foundational Doctrines of our Faith.

Paul was an Apostle that had a very balanced Doctrine and was responsible for maintaining and also challenging Doctrines in the Body of Christ.

In the book of 2Timothy 3:16 we read that all scripture is given by inspiration by God and is profitable for Doctrine, for Reproof, for Correction, for Instruction in Righteousness.

For the Doctrine of Resurrection today there are so many views, so many theories and so much conflict, it is my endeavour in this list to simply present as many of the clear and concise scriptures that speak of the Resurrection, and they are scriptures or a Plumbline that I continually use for any of the studies I have done, it is so important that I must always align myself and my ideas to this plumbline.

I would encourage all to read and to study so that it may be the plumbline for your views and theories; I have presented them as bullet points as they are very crucial.

• 1 Cor 15:20 Now is Christ risen and He has become the firstfruits of them that slept, when this verse is broken up it shows that Jesus is the First of Fruits of them that slept, He is the First of many, these fruits that He is the First of is all of those that are in Christ from many tribes, nations and race.
• Rev 1:5 also confirms this statement and states that Jesus is the First born from the dead, this implies that there was no other before Him and that He alone was the First born.
• Col 1:18 also confirms the same Jesus is the First born from the dead.
• 1 Cor 15:21 states that by Christ came the resurrection of the dead.
• 1 Cor 15:22 states that in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
• 1 Cor 15:23 states that there is an order to the Resurrection in the immortal body.
• 1 Cor 15:23 Jesus Christ is First.
• 1 Cor 15:23 Afterward those that are Christs at His Coming, by this verse we see that only Jesus Christ is risen in His new Immortal body and that afterward at His coming those that are Christs will be raised in the New Immortal Body.
• 1 Cor 15:42-49 states that the Resurrection of our bodies will be a body that is raised and also for those that are alive at the time it will be a body that is changed, changed to a body that is incorruptible, in Glory, in Power, a Spiritual Body and a Heavenly Body.

• Romans 8:23 states that we have the first fruits of the Spirit, and that because we have just the first fruits we are still groaning, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body, we are still awaiting that immortal body, at present we are still housed in this mortal body.
• 1 Cor 15:51 states that we will not all die but that we will ALL be changed.
• 1 Cor 15:52 states that this changing takes place in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, it says that the dead will be raised incorruptible and we will be changed.
• Rom 8:11 states that the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead will also raise us up from the dead.
• 1 Thess 4:13-14 states that we have a Hope in Jesus in that all that have died in Christ He shall bring with Him, these that have died that Jesus is bringing with Him are the spirits and they are still awaiting to be clothed in their new bodies, how do we know this? Because verse 16 tells us.
• 1 Thess 4:16 states that when He comes the dead in Christ will rise first, this reveals an amazing Truth that the dead bodies of those that have died will be raised incorruptible and will be joined again with our spirit.
• 1 Thess 4:15 states that we who are alive and are changed will not be before those that have died, and again in verse 16 the dead will rise first, before us.
• 2 Cor 5:8 states that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, so when we have no body we are present with the Lord and when He returns again He will bring our spirit and will again clothe us but with a New Immortal Body.
I would like to now shift for a short moment and look at some verses that are in common and are in the same order in the Old Testament as well as in the New testament,. Jesus, Paul, John, and Daniel as well as in the book of Acts all speak in exact Harmony on the Resurrection, they all speak of a Resurrection of the Just, also known as the Resurrection of Life and also known as the Resurrection of Everlasting Life and they also speak of a resurrection of the unjust, also known as the resurrection of damnation, also known as the resurrection of everlasting contempt. The verses for these are as follows, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, John 5:28, Daniel 12:2. All are spoken in the same order and are in Harmony.
• Revelations 20 also speaks of two Resurrections, the First is when Jesus comes and is spoken of as Blessed and Holy is he that takes part in the first resurrection, on such the second death has no power and they shall be Priests of God and Christ and shall reign with Christ a 1000 years, we then read that not all of the dead are raised in this First Resurrection. After 1000 years the sea and death and hell delivered up all of the dead and they were judged by God and those that are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of Fire. So we again see that this First Resurrection is a Resurrection of those that are Justified in Christ, they are Blessed and Holy and the second Resurrection is of those that are judged and there is the Lake of Fire. This concept of two resurrections is important to keep in mind.
Let us now go back to the Resurrection of those in Christ, what does the scriptures say of how this takes place.

• 1 Thess 4:16 states that Jesus Himself will descend with a Shout, with the Voice of an Archangel, and with the Trump of God.
• 1 Cor 15:52 states that this Trump will be the Last Trump and that it will sound.
• Math 24:30-31 are also in Harmony with the above and states that Jesus comes in the Clouds with Great Power and Glory, Jesus sends His Angels with a Great Awakening Blast of a Trumpet and that His Angels will gather together His Elect from the four points of Heaven.
• Mark 13:27 states that the Angels will gather the Elect from the four points of Heaven and the earth.
• John 6:39, 40, 44 states that Jesus will raise up those that God has given to Him on the Last Day.
Let us quickly summarise Jesus comes in the clouds, with a great awakening blast of a Trumpet and this trumpet is called the last Trumpet, there is a Shout, with the Voice of an Archangel, and the angels gather to Him all that are in Him from the four points of the Heaven and the Earth and Jesus stated that this will be at the Last Day, surely this is the resurrection of the Just and surely it is the First Resurrection.
• 1 Thess 4:17 also harmonizes with this in that it states that after the dead are raised we will be caught up to meet them in the clouds, this being caught up after the dead are raised and our bodies are changed is called the (rapture) it is the means by which we are gathered by force to the clouds to meet Jesus.
• 1 Thess 5:10 states that whether we are dead or alive we will Live together with Him.
• ! Thess 4:17 states that when this happens we shall ever be with the Lord Jesus, (wherever He exists we will be with Him)
• 1 Cor 15:54-56 states that death will be swallowed up in victory, death has no sting and the grave has no victory.
• 2 Thess 1:10 states that Jesus will come to be Glorified in His saints and to be admired in all of them that believe.
• Math 24:27 states that as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even to the west so shall also be the Coming of the Sun of Man, even when on a day of sun the lightning strikes and lights up the sky with brilliant brightness and sound.
• 2 Tim 2:18 Paul is speaking about a lie that had caused an overthrowing of the faith in some believers; this lie was that the resurrection is past already, a false Doctrine regarding the resurrection.
• 2 Thess 2:1-2 Paul addresses this issue of the Coming of Christ and our Gathering together to Him and in verse 1 pleads with them to not be troubled by spirit, by word, or by letter as if it was from Paul or any other believer as if the day of Christ is at hand, Paul is clearly talking about the day of Christ when He comes and gathers us to Himself. Paul may have been concerned as to the error that had been of concern in the letter of Timothy above.

• 2 Thess 2:3 Paul then states to them to not be deceived by any man, for there comes a falling away (apostasia) first, and that the man of sin, the son of perdition be revealed, if we take into account what paul is saying it appears very clear that he is concerned for the believers and does not want them to be deceived and troubled and wants to assure them that Christ will not come and gather us to Himself until the Apostasia and the son of Perdition is revealed, Paul then goes on to say in verse 8 that Jesus will destroy the son of perdition at His coming.
• 2 Thess 2:15 Paul then states to stand fast in the traditions which you have been taught whether by word or epistle, we should also do the same. Stand firm on the word and the epistles.
• Revelations 19:20 also harmonizes with what Paul is saying regarding the Coming of Christ and the destruction of the Beast and the false prophet, it says that both the beast and the false prophet who worked miracles and deceived were cast into the lake of fire.
• Daniel 7:11 also harmonises with the destruction of this person, it states that the beast was slain and his body destroyed and given to the burning flame
• Matthew 24:30-31 Talks about the coming of Christ in the clouds with great power and glory and that He sends His Angels with a Great Awakening Blast and gathering His elect from the four points of Heaven and earth but where is this placed in Matthew 24
• Matthew 24:29-30 Show that His Coming is after the Tribulation, and it also says that it is after the Sun is darkened, the moon does not give its light and the stars fall from heaven, it does not state how long this sequence of events take but it does say after these events.
• Matthew 24:36 says of that day and hour of Christs coming after those events, no one knows, only the Father.
• Luke 21:28 harmonizes with the same and states that when you see these things begin to happen to look up for Redemption is drawing near, still don’t know the day or hour but it is drawing near.
• Luke 21:31 also states the same again when you see these things come to pass know that the Kingdom of God is near at hand.
• Revelations 6:12-13 also harmonise with the Sun and Moon and Stars, it states the sun became black as sack cloth, the Moon became as blood, the stars of heaven fell onto the earth, these events also takes place just prior to the Lamb coming to the Earth.
• Joel 2;10 also speak of the Sun and Moon and stars and again in Joel 2:31 the sun being turned to darkness, the moon into blood before the Coming of the Great and awesome day of Jehovah, who ever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved

• Rev 10:7 It is interesting to note that a statement is made when the 7th Trumpet is about to sound that the Mystery of God should be finished as God has stated to His servants the Prophets, also in Rev 11;15 the 7th Trumpet sounds and when it does it states that there are voices in Heaven saying that the Kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdoms of Christ and He shall reign forever and ever. There are several mysteries that we are still awaiting, the Coming of Christ, when is He coming, the mystery of the resurrection when is it happening, the restoration of Israel, when is it happening, the king sitting on the throne in Jerusalem when is it happening, the reign of Christ over all of the Kingdoms and all of the prophecies concerning the coming of Christ and the Resurrection. When will they be fulfilled?

There are so many other verses and so many other events but I think the ones that have been mentioned present a plumbline of consistency and harmony.


To summarise the Plumbline of verses that I must also use for any doctrine or theory on the Coming of Jesus and the Resurrection that I speak, and that I believe myself, I must always harmonise with the following true points.


Does my Doctrine line up with the following?

• Is Jesus the First Fruit
• Is Jesus the First Born
• Is Jesus the only one that has received the new immortal body until He comes
• Is there the correct order of Resurrection Christ First and afterward those that are Christs at His coming
• In Christ shall all be made alive
• Are we all be changed in the twinkling of an eye
• Are the dead in Christ risen First then we who are alive will be changed and caught up to meet them in the clouds
• Does it agree with to be absent from the body is to be present in the Lord
• Does it agree with that Jesus brings with Him those that have died and that when He comes the dead will be raised and the spirit will be reclothed in the resurrected body of immortality
• Does it agree with the 2 Resurrections, the Resurrection of the Just, the first Resurrection and also agree with the 2nd Resurrection the Resurrection of the unjust a 1000 year period later
• Does it agree with the Coming of Christ in the clouds
• Does it agree with the Great Awakening Trumpet
• Does it agree with the Trumpet that is sounded as being the last Trumpet
• Does it agree with the Angels gathering together all of the elect from the 4 points of heaven and earth
• Does it agree with Jesus raising us at the Last Day
• Does it agree with what Paul stated regarding that the Coming of Jesus and His gathering us together to Himself will not happen until the Apostasia and the revealing of the Son of Perdition takes place first and that when Jesus comes He will destroy the Son of Perdition
• Does it agree with Timothy and that the Resurrection has not happened yet
• Does it agree with the clear events that are described in Matthew that the Tribulation comes and after it is complete there are signs in the sun and moon and stars and that the Coming of the Son of Man when He gathers all to Himself happens sometime after those signs
• Does it agree with that of that day or hour when Jesus comes after those signs no one knows but God the Father
• Does it agree that Blessed and Holy is He that is in the First Resurrection and that whoever is in the First Resurrection will be Priests of God and Jesus and will reign on thrones with Christ for 1000 years until the 2nd Resurrection.
• Does it agree with the 7th Trumpet that when it sounds the Mystery of God is complete and that all the Kingdoms are now Christs and He will reign forever and ever?

May we always harmonise our theory or doctrine with the Word and the Epistles.

I appreciate feedback as we all need to be in Truth and in Harmony with Gods Word.

 2014/2/2 23:40Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: May we always harmonise our theory or doctrine with the Word and the Epistles.

budgie,
what is your interpretation of mat 25 ,the 10 virgins?

 2014/3/16 20:23Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: sorry about the delay as I have been away

I will answer your question very shortly as to the 10 virgins as there are many of the parables that tie in together to paint the picture

As to your question as to my scriptural references I hope this next list helps create a scriptural picture

The Harmony of scriptures in regards to The Death and Resurrection of Christ and the Coming of Christ and our Resurrection and Gathering together to Him forever in our New Immortal Bodies.

Jesus died for our sins 1Corinthians 15; 3
Jesus was buried 1Corinthians 15:4
Jesus rose again on the 3rd day 1Corinthians 15:4
Christ was seen by many 1 Corinthians 15:5-8
Some teach there is no Resurrection, if there is no Resurrection then Jesus is not risen 1 Corinthians 15:12-13
If Christ is not raised then our Faith is vain, and we that have died in Christ are perished 1 Corinthians 15:15-17
Christ is risen from the dead and He became the FirstFruits of the dead
1Corinthians 15:20
Jesus is the Firstborn from the dead Revelations 1:5
Jesus is the First born from the dead Colossians 1:18
Death came by one man Adam, 1 Corinthians 15:20
By Christ came the Resurrection of the dead 1Corinthians 15 21
In Christ all shall be made alive 1Corinthians 15; 22
There is an order to being made alive in the resurrection 1Corinthians 15; 23
Christ First 1Corinthians 15; 23
Afterward all those that are Christs at His Coming 1Corinthians 15:23
How are the dead raised and what body do they have? 1Corinthians 15:35
The dead in Christ are raised in Incorruption, are raised in Glory, are raised in Power, are raised a spiritual body, are raised a heavenly body 1Corinthians 15:42-49
We shall all be changed 1Corinthians 15:51
We shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye 1 Corinthians 15; 52
We shall all be changed at the Last Trumpet that shall sound 1 Corinthians 15:52
The dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed 1 Corinthians 15:52
Death will be swallowed up in victory, death has no sting and the grave has no victory
1 Corinthians 15:54-56
The same Spirit that raised Jesus will also raise us up from the dead Romans 8:11
We have a Hope in Jesus for those that have died in Christ 1 Thessalonians 4:13
Jesus will bring with Him those that have died in Christ 1 Thessalonians 4:14
To be absent from this body when we die is to be present with the Lord 2 Corinthians 5:8
We who are alive on earth at the coming of Christ will not be before those who have died in Christ 1 Thessalonians 4:15
Jesus descends with a shout, with the voice of an archangel with the Trumpet of God 1 Thessalonians 4:16
Jesus comes in the clouds with Power and Glory; He sends His angels with a great Trumpet sound Matthew 24:30-31
Angels gather together His elect from the 4 points of Heaven Matthew 24:31
Angels gather together His elect from the 4 points of Heaven and Earth Mark 13:27
The dead in Christ shall rise first (their body that arises is joined with their spirits that God brings with Him) 1 Thessalonians 4:17






We which are still alive (whose bodies will be changed in the twinkling of an eye) shall be caught up to the clouds to meet them that have been raised from the dead 1Thessalonians 4:17
Whether we are dead or alive we will live together with Him 1Thessalonians 5:10
And so shall we ever be with the Lord 1Thessalonians 4:17
Christ shall come to be glorified in His Saints and to be admired in all of them that believe 2 Thessalonians 1:10
Jesus said that He will raise up those from the dead that God had given to Him at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44
We have the Firstfruits of the Spirit and we groan waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body (when we become fully spirit) (no more immortality) Romans 8:23
Paul Begs us concerning this Coming of Christ and our gathering together to Him to be not troubled as if this day is at hand 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2
Paul said to not be deceived because this day will not come until first comes the falling away (APOSTASIA) 2 Thessalonians 2:3
And this day will not come until also comes the revealing of the Son of Perdition 2 Thessalonians 2:3
This man of sin the Son of Perdition will be destroyed at the Coming of Christ 2 Thessalonians 2:8
The events that take place before the Coming of Jesus and the Trumpet sound and the gathering together to Himself from the 4 points of heaven and earth are as follows
The Abomination that is spoken of in Daniel Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14-19 Daniel 9:27
The Tribulation starts when this abomination takes place in Jerusalem Matthew 24:21, Mark 13;19,
The beast that is given power for 42 months Revelations 13:1-8
The 2 witnesses that are given power for 42 months at the same time that the Gentiles trample the Holy City of God Revelations 11:2-13
There shall be signs in the sun and moon, and the stars; there shall be distress of nations with perplexity, the seas and waves roaring Luke 21:25
Mens hearts failing them for fear and because of things happening on the earth, for the powers of heaven shall be shaken Luke 21:26
The sun shall be darkened, the moon not give her light, the stars shall fall from heaven and the Heavens shall be shaken, these signs shall come after the Tribulation Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24
These things happen immediately after the Tribulation Matthew 24:29-33, Mark 13:24-29, Luke 21:25-31
And when we see these things beginning to come to pass, then look up your heads for your redemption is drawing nigh (the redemption of our new immortal body)
We must take heed to ourselves when these things begin to happen, we must be careful that we do not have our hearts overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life so that this day of the Coming of Christ come upon us unawares, for as a snare it shall come upon all of (them) that dwell on the earth.
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven Matthew 24:30






For as the Lightning cometh out of the east and (shineth) even to the West so shall also the Coming of the Son of Man be Matthew 24:27, Luke17: 24
They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with Power and Great Glory
But does anyone know this day or hour of Christs Coming after these signs? No one knows but God the Father Matthew 24:36-51, Mark 13:32- 37,

Revelations tells us when the First Resurrection takes place ( the Resurrection of the Just)
Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the 1st Resurrection on such the second death has no power, but they shall be Priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Christ for a 1000 years Revelations 20:6
Jesus speaks of this Resurrection of the Just Luke 14:14
Reference again made to the 2 Resurrections of the Just and the Unjust are made in Acts 24:15
Again Jesus speaking of the 2 Resurrections in the same order the Resurrection of Life and the Resurrection of damnation John 5:28
Daniel also speaks of these 2 Resurrections in the same order some awake to everlasting life and some rise to shame and everlasting contempt Daniel 12:2
The rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years is finished, the Resurrection of the dead before that 1000 years is the 1st Resurrection. Revelations 20:5
What takes place around the time of this 1st Resurrection
The marriage of the Lamb is come Revelations 19:7
The bride has made herself ready Revelations 19:7
He has been granted to be clothed in fine linen Revelations 19:8
The linen is the righteousness of the saints Revelations 19:8
There was a White Horse with the Word of God sitting on it Revelations 19:13
The armies of Heaven follow with Him Revelations 19:14
Jesus will smite the nations and tread the winepress of the wrath of God Revelations 19:15
Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron Revelations 19:14
The armies of the beast will be assembled ready to fight Jesus Revelations 19:19
Jesus takes the Beast and the false prophet and throws them into the Lake of Fire Revelations 19:20
This man of sin the Son of Perdition will be destroyed at the Coming of Christ 2 Thessalonians 2:8
The 1000 years begins
Thrones are seen at this time with those in the First Resurrection reigning with Christ, those that were beheaded for their witness of Jesus, and for the word of God and which had not worshipped the image of the beast, nor the image and had not received the mark of the beast on their foreheads or hands were seen alive with Christ and they reigned with Christ 1000 years Revelations 20:4-5
This was a promise to the Churches, He that overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death, (because these will be in the First resurrection) Revelations 2:11
He that overcomes and keepeth my works until the end I will give power over the nations and he will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Revelations 2:26-27





He that overcomes shall be clothed in white raiment and Jesus will not blot out his name from the book of life Revelations 2:5
Satan is bound for a 1000 years so that He cannot deceive the nations that are left Revelations 20:1-3

At the end of the 1000 years Satan will be released, will go out to deceive the nations to come against the saints, but fire will come down from God in Heaven and will devour them, and the devil will be cast into the lake of fire Revelations 20:7-10
Then the white throne judgement begins where all of the dead that are in the sea and the earth are raised and are judged for their works, whoever does not have their name written in the Book of Life is cast into the lake of fire as well as death and Hell, this being cast into the Lake of Fire is called the second death. Revelations 20:11-15


To summarise all of the above in a simple way we can say that Jesus died for our sins, he arose from the grave on the third day in a new immortal body, He was seen by many. The Resurrection is true and when Jesus comes again all of those in Christ will be raised and changed into their new immortal body. This Resurrection will be called the resurrection of the Just.
There will be events before Christ returns that are happening on this earth that are causing distress for those unaware of Gods plan.

There will be an event that takes place in Jerusalem that is called an abomination and it will be caused by the person known as the Beast, the Son of Perdition, the Antichrist, this person will only be given power by God for 42 months and this beast uses the power of Satan, at the time of this abomination there will be a time of tribulation that has never been before in history and will never be again after, the Holy city of Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles for this 3 ½ year period .

There will be 2 witnesses that are sent by God and are given power at the same time for the same period; these 2 witnesses will bring torment, plagues, and death to unbelievers and also no rain during this period.

There is a battle that is taking place between Satan and God, the Beast states that He is God, and torments the saints, at the end of the ministry of the 2 witnesses they are killed by the Beast and the people that were tormented by the two witnesses celebrate their death and will not allow their bodies to be buried, after 3 ½ days the 2 witnesses come back to life and are called to heaven.
Just after them ascending to Heaven at that same hour there is an earthquake in Jerusalem and 1/10 of the city falls and 7000 men die, not long after their ascension the last of the 7 trumpets sounds and it says that the Kingdoms become Christs and the saints are rewarded.
Paul warns the believers that the coming of Jesus and our gathering together to Him will not happen until an apostasy takes place and this same Son of Perdition is revealed, at present no one knows who the son of perdition is and when Jesus comes He will destroy the Son of Perdition.







At the end of the tribulation there will be signs in heaven, in the Sun, in the moon and the stars will be falling from heaven before the coming of Christ , Jesus says to us who are alive at that time that when we see these things starting to happen that we should look up as our redemption is drawing near.
Jesus says that when He comes He will be coming in the clouds, He will be shining in the heavens from the east to the west like the shining sun, He will give a shout with the voice of an archangel, there will be a loud awakening trumpet sound and this trumpet is called the Last Trumpet, He will send His angels to gather to himself all of the elect from the heavens and the earth, when this trumpet sounds the dead in Christ will arise first in their new immortal body and we who are alive will also have our body changed, this changing of our bodies from mortal to immortal happens in the twinkling of an eye. We who are alive at that time will then be caught up into the clouds with those that are resurrected from the dead.
This being caught up to meet them in the clouds is called the rapture, it takes place after the dead are raised and our bodies are changed.

Jesus stated that He will raise up those that God has given to Him on the Last day, this happens at the Last trumpet call, there are 2 Resurrections spoken of in Old Testament and New Testament, they are the Resurrection of the Just also known as the Resurrection of Life also known as the Resurrection of Everlasting Life and then there is the second Resurrection known as the Resurrection of the unjust also known as the Resurrection of damnation and also Known as the resurrection of everlasting contempt.
These two Resurrections are placed approximately 1000 years apart, the Resurrection of the Just is first, those who are in this First Resurrection of Life do not have to fear the judgement that takes place at the second resurrection, those in the second resurrection of the unjust that do not have their names written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire with the Beast, the false prophet and death and hades.
The reason why the First resurrection is called the resurrection of the Just is because we that are in that Resurrection are just, not because of our own righteousness but because we have accepted the Righteousness of Christ and have been cleansed and made Holy by His Blood, we are new creations in Christ Jesus, he is our mediator and He is our Righteousness.

 2014/3/16 22:03Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: and Gathering together to Him forever in our New Immortal Bodies.

This theory is massivly flawed.

The greatest event about to happen is the gathering of the bride.

You need to rethink the serious omissions and impossibilities your theory espouses.

1)there can be no rapture at the end of the GT.(AC has killed all the saints.
2) you forgot about the wine we drink in heaven with Jesus
3) you forget about the mansions he Prepared for us IN HEAVEN
4) you need to read rev 19.We are already in heaven during the GT.(hint;bride is now WIFE)
5) You do not realize the "number no man can number" (rev 7) is the same group you misconstrue as 1st resurrection of rev 20.

Please try not to go into a a thesis teaching from Adam to the lake of fire to answer members

 2014/3/18 0:24Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: REPLY to Psalm1

Thanks PSALM1 for your response

The Book of Revelations describes in detail and even shows where Jesus Comes and it is clearly in 19 and 20, it even shows the 1st Resurrection, as to the being caught up this does not happen until the Resurrection takes place, there is no being caught up without the resurrection first.

There is no where in scripture that states that those seen in heaven have been given their new immortal bodies.

Jesus brings with Him those that have died, it does not say that he brings with him those that have resurrected in their new bodies.

Paul even states that Jesus will not come and will not gather us to Himself until both the apostasy AND the revealing of the son of perdition happens.

So clearly Jesus is coming at a time during the apostasy and also the revealing of the Antichrist, also Jesus destroys this Antichrist at His coming.

In regards to the Book of Revelation and the Antichrist, the mark of the beast etc and also Matthew and End Times, it is so very important to be aware of the following.

The Bible is mainly middle eastern focused and by that I mean that it began in the garden of Eden out of which flows the rivers in the middle east.

Most of the events take place in the middle east and especially Jerusalem.

Jesus was born in Bethlehem, also the bible ends with Christ returning to Jerusalem and later a New Heaven and Earth and a New Jerusalem.

In regards to endtimes events most of the prophecies relate to events and places surrounding Israel.

Daniel speaks very clearly of the 4 kingdoms and especially the kingdom of the Antichrist.

Daniel states that King Nebuchadnezar ruled the whole earth, this is true but he only ruled the earth where his kingdom existed, many other countries were not under his rule.

It will be the same for the Antichrist, He will sit in the temple in Jerusalem and say that he is God.

Jesus even stated that the antichrist will cause the abomination of desolation in Israel

The same with Other kingdoms such as media Persia, alexander the great, and Rome, they only ruled the earth that consisted of their kingdom boundaries.

It is the same with the Antichrist and His Kingdom, it is a kingdom that consists in the middle east as Daniel states.

All 4 kingdoms cover roughly the same area

Most of the prophecies relating to this Antichrist are to be fulfilled in the Middle East, even the Coming of Jesus to destroy the Antichrist.

The rest of the world will go on just as it does today, there is much war in the Middle east today but other countries go on.

As to the mark of the beast etc all of this also happens in the middle east, even the whore city that is destroyed by the antichrist and the 10 kings that rule for a short period.

Not all will receive the mark of the beast just as much as not all Christians world wide are not killed by the antichrist.

It says in Revelations that when Jesus returns He will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

These nations must exist after the antichrist is killed so there must also be people that have not received the mark of the beast, otherwise what nations will Jesus and His saints rule.

The Antichrist/ son of Perdition is clearly described as operating and living in the middle east, he comes from the northern kingdom.

Countries today are effected slightly by middle eastern events but are still ruled by their own leaders.

Please consider the above.

Also who do you say the nations are that Jesus and his saints rule for a 1000 years on earth?

 2014/3/19 3:12Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

"There is no where in scripture that states that those seen in heaven have been given their new immortal bodies."

I already showed you their is no possible way a post rapture can happen.It is impossible.The AC kills ALL,emphatically ALL who refuse the mark.It even says every human being on the planet.

If the redeemed in heaven have not received their immortal bodies what are they doing wearing robes?
How are they drinking wine?
How did the marriage get consummated and the bride is now the wife in rev 19?
How are the elders wearing crowns on their heads?
How are they riding horses?
How are they holding harps?(the 144k you say are not in heaven but clearly are)
Disembodied spirits can not do these things.

Why does postrib leave out the heavenly scene,and all that happens in heaven?

 2014/3/19 9:50Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

"The Book of Revelations describes in detail and even shows where Jesus Comes and it is clearly in 19 and 20, it even shows the 1st Resurrection, as to the being caught up this does not happen until the Resurrection takes place, there is no being caught up without the resurrection first."

I showed you rev 20 is referring to the exact same group as rev 7.

Further,Jesus is part of the 1st res.(plus the OT saints resurrected)

Hint; the clue is in the harvest.(get it?harvest?)

Harvest is 3 part
1)firstfruits>>>>pointing to Jesus (plus ot saints)
2)harvest>>>>>pointing to the rapture,and the dead in Christ
3)gleaning>>>>>>>>pointing to the harvested straglers during the GT
This is ALL the 1st resurrection.
This is WHY it says "blessed are they which die from this point foreward"
This is why and how you missed that the 144k died and are in heaven DURING THE GT.
This is why the times of the gentiles HAD to be finished at the beginning of the GT.
This is WHY the multitude in heaven is "a number no man can count"
This omission by postrib is so glaring,and out of harmony,that it PROVES emphatically that postrib is made up by poorly thought out processes.
Postrib ,basically,baked a cake with no flour.OOOPS
Really was poorly thought out,right from the beginning.
All that effort you are putting in to making the harvest fit after the GT falls short.It does not even remotely fit.

In fact even the OT saints were part of the 1st resurrection.

But yes,we agree Jesus returns AFTER the GT.We are not disputing that.He returns with his bride which is now his WIFE.
So even the marriage supper is over.
Remember spiritual law.
The last is first.
The first miracle was water into wine.
The last order is unsurprisingly the bride becomes the wife.
(or.....wine at the marriage supper)
Beginning<>ending....one in the same
Marriage scene/wine<> marriage scene/wine


Do you see the utter impossibility of postrib????


Major,major fail is to omit the Bride/groom dimension.
This is where postrib completely,and totally becomes an impossibility

 2014/3/19 10:05Profile





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