| Re: |
This subject is nearly always going to attract polarised views on either end of the spectrum. That is not to say that it should not be discussed, because that is how we learn. However I don't think it is helpful to form camps of one view or another and give caractures of the oposite camp.
(I used to be of the pre-trib camp, but am not of any camp now regarding the when the rapture takes place). Both pre and post camps say things about each others which are either incorrect or hugely generalistic.
Why not discuss the topic purely from a scriptural basis, not using any other reasoning. This would be most helpful. I appreciated DavidC's post, but David you need to give more scripture than this to show why you take this view.
We should be able to accept diferent views on this subject without regarding those with a different view to us as being deceived or unspiritual. If it was that clear in scripture there would not be so many different opinions. Whenever it is, we know that the Lord is going to take His people to be with Him and has prepared a place for them in His Father's house, so those who have this hope purify themselves!
Edit: I should have also said I appreciated Budgie's last post. I think he has some good points. It is up to the pre-tribbers to now provide the scriptures for their view.
| 2014/1/26 12:07||Profile|
| Re: |
May I say this in the most loving and encouraging way, Hebrews states in Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
There can only be one true Doctrine on the Resurrection, it is a foundational teaching.
There can only be One Truth,it is like a building that is being built, if the foundation is true and straight then the whole building stands in beauty and strength, if it is not built on a true and straight foundation it all comes crashing down and there is no beauty and glory.
The One Truth is like a puzzle, each truth is a piece to the puzzle, it can only go together one way to create the picture that was intended, if each piece is twisted, tipped upside down, cut or forced the puzzle will not come together and the true beautiful picture will never be revealed in its beauty.
Gods Word is True, there can only be one truth to the Resurrection and how it fits in the picture, each verse is a piece to the puzzle, either the verse is true or it has been twisted and is now a lie.
Gods word is true, and each piece must come together as God has designed.
The following are some truthful puzzle pieces.
1 Jesus was dead but is now alive in His New Immortal body
2 Jesus is the firstborn from the dead
3 Jesus is the FirstFruits of the dead
4 there is an order to the resurrection of the immortal body, first Christ
5 afterward at Christ coming those in Christ will receive the new immortal body
6 we will receive a body like His and be like Him
7 Jesus said that He will raise us at the last day
8 Jesus said that this day of His coming this last day will be with a shout
9 Jesus said that this day of His coming will be with a loud trumpet sound
10 Paul said that this Trumpet sound will be the Last Trumpet
11 Paul stated that we will not be gathered to Christ until first comes the Apostasy and the Antichrist is revealed
12 Paul said that Jesus will destroy the Antichrist at His coming
13 Paul stated that our bodies will be changed at that last trumpet in the twinkling of an eye
14 Paul stated that after our bodies are changed in the twinkling of an eye we will then arise to meet Christ in the air
15 Revelations tells us exactly when the Bride of Christ has finally made herself ready
16 Revelations tells us when the bride has been clothed
17 Revelations tells us that the clothing is the righteousness of the saints
18 Revelations tells us when this First Resurrection takes place
19 Revelations tells us when the mystery of the Resurrection will be completed, every prophecy regarding the Resurrection finally fulfilled
20 Revelations tells us exactly when all the Kingdoms become Christ
21 Revelations tells us exactly when death is swallowed up in victory
22 Revelations tells us exactly when we begin to Rule and reign with Christ
23 Jesus clearly talks about the Resurrection of us as a Resurrection of the Just
There is only One Truthful teaching regarding the Coming of Christ and of the Resurrection on that last day at the last trump.
Search today and know the Truth, one doctrine is true one is a lie from the master of lies himself who has come to steal and destroy.
Paul only taught one truth and that truth has to be the same as the truth that Jesus spoke and all of the bible speaks.
Don't settle for a lie, search the scriptures, get the pieces of the puzzle right.
God will be Glorified when the pieces come together as True
The Doctrine of Resurrection is an elementary teaching and is a foundational teaching, the year is 2014 and still the foundation is in disarray.
Please God Help us To lay the Truthful foundation and that we may all go onto perfection.
One thing I do know is that there is a great searching in the Word of God and many and I say many are changing their theories and are aligning their doctrine to the truthful doctrine of Christ.
| 2014/1/26 13:48||Profile|
| Re: |
Jesus spoke many words to His disciples and we must take into account all of the words He spoke to them and base our truth on all that He spoke not only a few.
Jesus told us everything He wanted us to know and IF NOT SO HE WOULD HAVE TOLD US
| 2014/1/26 13:56||Profile|
| Re: |
HI Davidc. I want to be truthful with you brother. What you wrote makes little sense in the context of what Jesus said. We are to ignore Matt 24 and focus on John 14 where the Lord says I will come again. I think the fact that He is coming again is something we can all agree on and is not the issue at all. John 16 Jesus is preparing His Disciples for their persecution and death, the context is not of the end days at all. In Matt 24 Jesus is answering a direct question about the end times. So to dismiss what Jesus says about the end times and focus on what Jesus is saying to His disciples about what is actually going to happen to them very soon, just makes no sense. You actually stated it correctly .......
"The purpose, the style, the audience and the content of these four chapters in John are so different from the purpose style audience and content of Matthew 24." ...... bro Frank
| 2014/1/26 15:08|
| Re: Where I am ye may be also|
Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
As I read this, I do not see a physical trip to a real estate venue. While an abundance of teaching has gone forth about heaven with lush gardens, golden streets, and magnificent mansions I don't think that is what He is talking about.
Paul's succinct statement that the long standing hidden mystery of the hope of glory was Christ in you came directly from the teaching of Jesus to His disciples in the John chapters 14 - 17. In these teachings it is clear that our destination is not real estate, but relationship.
"I go to prepare a place for you so that where I am, ye may be also" means that His intention is to have the disciples join Him in mature and complete sonship with the Father. Physical locations are irrelevant, the relationship is everything.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is God's gift to men to give a small foretaste of that relationship, and that is why Paul makes so many references to it as "The earnest (or downpayment) of our inheritance" and "the first-fruits of the Spirit." We should all as a part of our day by day awareness of God and His purposes have that touch of eternity in our hearts as we wait for the promised redemption.
From my observations, those who do not have a genuine relationship with the Holy Spirit cannot grasp the hope of that sonship realtionship and are confined to hope in earthly imagery.
| 2014/1/26 15:10||Profile|
| Re: |
Very comprehensive list you have given. If you could give the scripture references to all your points that would be helpful.
I don't think anyone would disagree that oursalvation is all about relationship with God. However you seem to be suggesting that there is no physical reality and that all references to future reality is spiritual. Do you really believe that there is no heaven, no new earth, no throne, no temple in heaven, etc? And that we just sort of float around in some sort of non physical spiritual state?
| 2014/1/26 15:28||Profile|
| Re: |
Thanks HeyDave for your comments. I agree wholeheartedly with your comments about making caracatures of opposing camps and over-generalising.
I personnally was raised in an amillennial fellowship, which I found to be too vague concerning the last days. I then discovered Darby and found his views to be a wonderfull revelation of scripture. Is this blasphemy on this site? But I agree that there are different ways of interpreting certain key passages, such as Matt 24 and Rom 11 and 2 Thess 2. So for the sake of my brethren, I try to be more understanding.
You said I should provide more scripture to support my view, but I was not intending to put accross my own view on last days. I only wanted to say that I like to see Christ's second coming initially from chapter 14 of John.
Budgie, I agree and could say a big amen to all of your 23 points on resurrection truth.
| 2014/1/26 16:09||Profile|
| Re: Physical reality|
Do I see physical realities disappearing? Emphatically no!
I draw much of the structure of my eschatology from Romans 8 where Paul proclaims that the whole creation, under its present bondage to decay, is released into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God.
Additionally, it is the desire of the Father that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven, and I think that connects in here too. Let alone the reign of Christ for a thousand years on the earth- again very much a physical reality.
When Jesus taught that the kingdom of heaven was like a man who found a treasure hidden in a field, and that he then bought the whole field, I see his demonstration of that on the Mount of Transfiguration. Here, Jesus the mortal man puts on immortality as witnessed by the disciples. He is speaking with Moses and Elijah but the substance of the conversation is not given- no need.
Jesus is in a heavenly plane where he can just chat with his eternal buddies somewhat outside of time, as we know Moses and Elijah were not contemporaries in the historical timeline.
Peter, his jaw hanging somewhere around his knees, is witness to something never seen before by mortal man, but in his earthly plane he cannot participate. In the jumble of his mind the most important thing is the booths!
We also know that Jesus did not keep that glorious substance, but laid it aside. Had he not, there would have been no purchase of the field and no ability for Him to share the immortal glory with Peter James and John- and by extension, us!
Our experience is so overwhelmingly physical! We have glimpses of eternal things, we believe in hope for the good things promised, but our knees still creak and our backs still hurt. We're not there yet.
But we welcome each day as one closer to the promises, and our hearts are buoyed by the Spirit living within. These things will be both spiritual and physical because we are created beings cast in the image of Almighty God. We will by His promises and the yearning of His love one day be like him, a part of that incredible conversation that the gospel writers saw ever so briefly on the mount.
| 2014/1/26 18:04||Profile|
| Re: Mat. 24:29-31|
Don't have the time to type in all of the passages. But verse 29 of Mat. 24 says "But immediately after the tribulation of those dsys". Verse 30 says "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear". Verse 30 says "And He will send forth His angels with s great trumphant and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end if the sky to the other."
In reading through Mathew 24 and Mark 13 the emphasis appears to be on one gathering together of believers in Jesus Christ. That event which will occur at the end of the great tribulation.
| 2014/1/26 18:19|
| Re: |
Why do you think Matt 28 v30 says that the "sign" of the Son of man will appear, and not the Son of man Himself?
| 2014/1/26 19:47||Profile|