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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Discussion of the Pretrib Rapture and Other End Time Topics

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 Discussion of the Pretrib Rapture and Other End Time Topics

Mathew 24:9-10
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and they will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

Several years ago I was talking with some fellow saints after a prayer meeting. The subject of scripture memory came up, particularly to sustain us during times of persecution and possible imprisonment. One brother remarked. " Ah that won't be necessary for we will be taken out of here". Thus implying his belief in a pre trib rapture that will deliver us from persecution.

I wonder if the reason many are going to fall away as described in the above verses is the belief in a pre trib rapture. Jesus does describe there will be those who will be persecuted and martyred in the end times. He also says there will be those sho will fall away to betray and hate one another. Probably those so-called believers will betray the remnant saints to save their own skins. But I imagine there will be those who hold to the view God will take then away from suffering and hardship only to find themselves under persecution. Thus like the shallow ground believers described in the parable of the sower they fall away.

The pre tribulation view of the rapture appears to be a western invention of theology. Some trace its development to J. N. Darby. But Scoffiekd was said to have popularized the pre trib view in America. With books by Hal Lindsey and Tim LeHaye the pre trib rapture has gained momentum in recent years. The view says saints will be taken up before the seven year tribulation. Those poor souls that are left down here must endure the reign of the anticbrist. Then if they endure then a second resurrection will occur. Personally I do not see such a view supported in scriptures.

It is being said in this forum about the negative effects of holding to a post trib rapture. I am compelled to speak out on a glaring weakness of the pre trib rapture. Namely the pre trib rapture view denies the reality of suffering for Christ. Again the weakness of the pretribulational vies of the rapture does not acknowledge the reality of suffering by way of the cross of Christ.

The pre trib view fits nicely into the western church. Particularly the American church. Believers in America are taught that your best life in Jesus Christ makes you immune to suffering. There is no call to die to self, take up one's cross, and embrace martyrdom. I am sure such a view pervades this forum. This is why the American church cannot embrace the idea of a persecuted church. Persecution is something over there. Not here. Thus a pe trib rapture finds fertle ground in America. It is an ear tickling doctrine to American believers to hold to. And one fraught with error to put believers at ease.

The Chinese church learned a very painful lesson in the early to mid 20tb century. During that time evangelical teaching espoused a belief in a rapture that would take the Chinese believer away from suffering. The way of suffering for the cross of Christ was not taught. During the Boxer rebellion, the Japanese invasion, and the communist take over of China, many professing believers fell awa. They fell away because the promised rapture never materialized. It wax only when the Chinese church started teaching the way of the cross, that one suffers for Christ, the Chinese church grew in numbers. Thus the Chinese saints were taught to endure persecution and suffering. Very few fall away because they are taught the truth.

In my readings on the persecuted church in restrcted, hostile nations, the idea of a pre trib rapture is not taught. The persecuted regard such a view as false erroneous teaching. They teach that Christ calls us to suffering, even martyrdom. The persecuted ask that we pray they endure the suffering and trials they cone under. Not that they escape them. Indeed the persecuted have a mindset of the cross we in America yet to uderstand or embrace.

As I close this post I am reminded of the words of a hymn. "Must I sail to heaven on flowery beds of ease while others sailed thru stormy seas.". Do we in America dare to think that God will take us away from the storm of suffering while our persecuted brethren are paying a terrible price for followering Christ. If we are thinking this. Then we are in for a very, very, rude awakening.

Posted by Blaine Scogin

 2014/1/25 10:20
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 701
San Diego

 Re: The Weaknes of a Pre Trib Rapture View

One of the first rules pf propaganda is repetition. Things become "true" because they are repeated over and over again. The "rapture" is a classic example of this. Even discussing this in America today will prove to be an uphill battle.

You would think that since Jesus never taught it, and with Paul's outspoken willingness to give up his own salvation if it could mean the salvation of his fellow pharisees, that the gospel realities of self sacrifice would over-rule doctrines clearly designed to seduce the flesh. Not so. We prefer escape.

When Jesus taught the disciples to pray, He spoke out the prophetic hope in The Father's heart. He told us to pray for the things God wanted so when the line comes "Thy will be done on earth the same as it is in heaven" we know what God wants to do on the planet He created for Man.

What those who hope in the skyward flight miss is that the hope of glory is Christ in you. When this occurs, as demonstrated on the Mount of Transfiguation, it doesn't matter whether you fly or stay right on the earth. And since restoration of the earth is a clear concept in scripture, it seems a better hope to be about fulfilling that which God longs for.

For whatever that might be worth...


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2014/1/25 11:18Profile









 Re: The Weaknes of a Pre Trib Rapture View

Quote:
I wonder if the reason many are going to fall away as described in the above verses is the belief in a pre trib rapture. Jesus does describe there will be those who will be persecuted and martyred in the end times. He also says there will be those who will fall away to betray and hate one another. Probably those so-called believers will betray the remnant saints to save their own skins. But I imagine there will be those who hold to the view God will take then away from suffering and hardship only to find themselves under persecution. Thus like the shallow ground believers described in the parable of the sower they fall away.



I have always wondered that myself.

Looking into the Bible and past history, the religious system has always persecuted the Church. The children of the "flesh" (Ishmael) will continue to persecute the children of the Spirit (Isaac). "even so it is now".

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now

 2014/1/25 11:21
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1365


 Re: The Weaknes of a Pre Trib Rapture View

Hi Bearmaster,
No doubt pre tribulation view has weaknesses like the Post tribulation.
After saying that your article is in fact "keeping saying this and it will be believed".
Like most debates from a non pre trib view it
-doesn't distinguish betweeen tribulation and "the great tribulation"
-It refers to China and persecution
-It mentions it comes from John Darby
It assumes quite wrongly that most pre tribulation believers dont believe in trials and tribulations or that they dont teach the cross.This is quite wrong and has been refuted on numerous occasions.Post tribulation believers dont have a monopoly on suffering trials or tribulations or sanctification.
What it misses totally is the pattern of the end which is success for the Church.
Yours Staff

 2014/1/25 16:46Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: The Weaknes of a Pre Trib Rapture View

Well said Bearmaster, Paul taught on the Resurrection of the dead and of those alive in Christ, the same as all other Prophets, Jesus, Peter and John, and man today speaks of a doctrine that is based on one word {rapture} and that same word is used in many other places in scripture that does not even relate to the Resurrection of the Dead, let us all focus on what all of the Men of God in Scripture focused on, the mystery that we are awaiting, the Resurrection of the Just in our New Immortal bodies to be with the Lord Jesus forever and to be like Him. To be with our God and Saviour, Pauls whole desire was to be in that Resurrection as were all of the Men of God and the whole purpose of Jesus arising from the Grave in His new Immortal body.
Let us truly search the scriptures to know that what we have been told is true or a lie, let us love and encourage each other to come into the Light of Christ.
Let scripture speak and let scripture be the standard not our opinions
once a scripture is examined the truth is revealed let us not try and deny the truth so that our own theory is the standard god is always glorified when the truth is revealed and held high
Many and I say many today have not studied in depth by searching the Word and allowing the Word to speak the Truth, Scripture interprets itself by the power of Gods Word and the Holy Spirit
In my studies I have found that there is not one single verse that supports a pretrib theory not one all come tumbling down jesus stated the signs before his coming there is only one trumpet call and that is the last thereis only one resurrection of the just and that is the last day and when jesus comes at the restoration of all things

 2014/1/25 18:08Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1365


 Re:

Hi Budgie,
Your quote:
In my studies I have found that there is not one single verse that supports a pretrib theory

Jesus Said Noah and Lot were not present during the wrath of God.Jesus also said that the "Judgement of God"would not come "until"they were taken out

Yours Staff

 2014/1/25 20:44Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re:

Well said however the judgement of the flood and the deliverance of Noah and the judgement of Sodom and the deliverance of Lot has no reference to a resurrection of the dead in Christ and no reference to a pretrib resurrection, no more than it has reference to a postrib resurrection view, as I said before there is not one scripture that clearly supports a Pretrib Resurrection (theory) and a pretrib coming of Christ (theory), they are but theories and are not based on the words of Jesus. We must always focus on what Jesus spoke,Jesus did not speak a theory He stated a truth and that is that after the Tribulation there will be signs in the sky and when He comes with a shout and a trumpet then we will be gathered together to him from the 4 points of heaven and earth, that is a clear statement that we cannot deny, all other verses regarding the resurrection of the just align with these words of Jesus,Jesus also clearly spoke of the Resurrection of the Just and of the resurrection of the unjust, Jesus also spoke that he will raise us up at the last day(not any day but the last day), Jesus also spoke of the body we will have in the resurrection, Jesus always spoke of it as a resurrection of the just (singular)not a pretrib or postrib resurrection but a Resurrection, and He even states when this Resurrection takes place. The reference to LOT and NOAH is not the resurrection of the just. God has planned since the beginning of creation the Resurrection of the Just, all of the Old Testament and New Testament saints have awaited this resurrection, it was planned through Jesus to be fulfilled at his Coming. Jesus was the Firstfruit and afterward at his coming those that are in Christ will all be resurrected or given new bodies if we are still alive. Noah and lot gives us a picture of how God gives us a choice and also gives us the means of deliverance. Lots wife was with lot when they left SODOM but she turned and looked back, she did not get deliverance even though she was standing next to Lot,also noah and lot were both present on earth and protected by God on earth during the judgements, Noah was in the ark on the water on the earth, he was in the judgement but protected and provided for in the boat and had to wait for the flood to subside. In the judgement that lot went through LOT had to physically leave the area of Sodom. He was protected on the earth but His wife was not, even though she was with him. When jesus comes he will bring deliverance to us while he brings judgement to the wicked. Daniel, Joel, revelations, Matthew, Zechariah, Peter, John, Thessalonians, Corinthians and many other books speak of the same truth regarding the Resurrection. We must focus on the Resurrection, Jesus clearly said that after the tribulation there will be signs in the sun and moon then he will come in the clouds with a shout and trumpet and he will gather us to himself, there is not one verse in scripture where Jesus states that (before the tribulation) you will see the signs in the sun and moon and a shout and trumpet and that he will gather together to him those that are in him. Paul even stated that Christ will not come until the Apostasy and the antichrist is revealed and that when Christ comes He will destroy the Antichrist with the brightness of His coming. Paul always spoke of the Resurrection and this is what he said 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Paul stated the same events as Jesus stated, a shout and a trumpet and a gathering together to himself. There are hundreds of verses that speaks of God bringing deliverance to the godly and judgement to the wicked.
The children of Israel were in the judgement of Egypt with the plagues, but were protected, they were not taken out of Egypt at this time, they had to place blood over their doorposts and went through the judgement in Egypt only those with the blood were protected, they were not taken away from Egypt during this judgement, deliverance was given to those under the blood and judgement came at the same time to the wicked , they were then led out of Egypt by God and in the sea Israel was saved and Egypt was again judged in the same sea.
Let us base our doctrine on the clear words of Christ, He told us exactly what would happen and in what order. He told us when he would come and even told us what would happen before he comes and what would happen at his coming. Jesus spoke very clearly on the Resurrection of the Just. Every verse in scripture is in total agreement with the words of Christ regarding his coming and the dead being raised and gathered to him.
Revelations even tells us when the First Resurrection takes place. If it says this is the first resurrection then I will believe it and not deny it or try and change it to suit a theory.It is the Truth.
Revelations gives an amazing insight into what things take place before He comes, it gives clear references to the Resurrection of the Just, clear reference to when the Bride has finally made Herself ready, clear reference to when the marriage takes place, clear reference to the first resurrection, clear reference to when the Kingdoms of this world becomes the kingdoms of Christ, clear reference to when Christ will rule this earth with a Rod of Iron, clear reference to when Jesus comes and defeats the antichrist, clear reference to when Satan is bound and clear reference to the Resurrection of the unjust.
There is not one verse that when truly examined in the light of scripture and in the use of Hebrew and Greek that clearly supports a pretrib resurrection, no not one.

 2014/1/25 22:23Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3385
East TN (for now)

 Re: The Weaknes of a Pre Trib Rapture View

Quote:
bearmaster wrote:
I wonder if the reason many are going to fall away as described in the above verses is the belief in a pre trib rapture.


Brother, from the time that I left the pre-trib camp, I have believed this. Now, granted there are very strong Christians in the pre-trib camp that will adapt because their faith is in Christ and not in a belief system, so they will not fall away. But a great number of the Great Falling Away, imho, will be those who think that God has forsaken them to suffer alone here because He didn't rapture them away.

Also, another point, I have noticed talking to Christians that a great number that believe in a pre-trib doctrine believe in the once saved always saved doctrine, the two seem to go hand-in-hand. I do not have statistics for this just my own observations talking to people around me and on the internet.

But anyway, good point, and God bless you for having the courage to make it!!! LOL

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2014/1/25 22:44Profile









 Re:

Hi Lysa, you wrote...........

"Also, another point, I have noticed talking to Christians that a great number that believe in a pre-trib doctrine believe in the once saved always saved doctrine, the two seem to go hand-in-hand. I do not have statistics for this just my own observations talking to people around me and on the internet."

This is because this teaching flows from John Nelson Darby and on into Dallas Theological and those of the Dispensationalism stance. This is a bastion of once saved always saved. The pre-Trib is the majority view in Christendom believe it or not which is why the Left Behind books were so popular. Along with Dispensationalism comes dominionism. They are quite a complicated set of believes and to try and follow it one's head can hurt, that is why I love the simplicity of the Scriptures. Pre-millenial dispensationalism is truly error stacked upon error which is very hard to break down even for one who attended such a college ( I did) For example,my professor's paper on Matt 24 was 348 pages long. Man's wisdom truly gets in the road of revelation and inspiration of the Scriptures and it all simply becomes an art and a science ( hermaneutics).........bro Frank

 2014/1/26 0:19
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

As someone who believes that the Lord will snatch up His bride before the Great Tribulation, I thought I'd share a few thoughts on this thread as to why I believe this to be the truth of scripture.

In looking at the promises of Jesus concerning His return, rather than looking at His prophesy in Matthew 24 of future events of this world, I would rather start with His intimate talk to His 11 disciples in the upper room in John 14 to 17. His first words after,significantly Judas had gone out, are:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

He reveals to them that He is going to His Father, and that He will return for them to take them also to His Father's house. In these four chapters are revealed the intimacy of the Father and the Son and them also by the Holy Ghost. A new special relation is revealed for them (and for us who believe) ie that of being in Him and He in them. It is a glorious truth which Paul later takes up as being the foundation of the church, His bride and His body.

But as regards the truth of His return, He simply says "I will come again and receive you unto myself". There is no mention here of signs of His coming, of famine, earthquakes, betrayals or the abomination of desolation. Simply, "I will come again and receive you unto myself".

This, I believe is where we should be, expecting His return at any time, not looking to events or signs, whether prophesied or not. This was to be a new revelation to the 11 disciples and to us. He says in chap 16:

Joh 16:4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

The truth of these chapters are a new thing, not said to them at the beginning, or during his prophesy in Matt 24, because at that time, he was "with them".

The purpose, the style, the audience and the content of these four chapters in John are so different from the purpose style audience and content of Matthew 24.

I would be happy to expand on this, but for now will leave it at that

DavidC


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david

 2014/1/26 10:45Profile





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