| Re: Balance please!|
Quite an exhaustive list! I won't go verse by verse, but a little context and a bit of Theology needs to come against the idea that God has a sovereign right to inflict diseases on people at His whim. He does not.
When James says in his letter that anyone who knows to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin- he is declaring the character of the law of God, and the obligations we have to the law are shared by all moral agents including the Godhead. Just as Jesus kept the law in sinless perfection, He was doing what He saw the Father doing. The Father keeps the law, has no trouble with that because it is the transcript of His character. If God were to set Himself above the law he loses His authority to enforce it and becomes a tyrant. Our God is not a tyrant, He wants the highest and best for all of His creation.
Yet He is the only being in the universe who has both the power and the moral authority to enforce the law. This He does in perfection and the examples you cite are merely that enforcement in action. None of these reflect a wavering, a shadow of turning from the steadfast love that marks His whole being. In short, He does not inflict illnesses on people without that essential element of enforcement filling out the reasonable judgements He makes.
No believer should live with a fear that God will turn on him and smite him in a human type of anger. He is good, His works are good, and no one will be able to sustain a charge against Him that He broke His own law!
Mockers beware- those who think they can get away with their sin are on a slippery slope and may be placing themselves beyond God's protective reach! You have the right to perish, and God is under no obligation to keep you from your wishes.
| 2014/1/15 0:49||Profile|
Los Angeles, CA
| Re: |
True, that God is not a tyrant in the sense that He finds pleasure in the death of the wicked or the suffering of man, but that doesn't mean that He doesn't use sickness for the good of His people as well as for judging sinners. Not sure what this actually has to do with His Law, as in Him breaking it? It is the same loving God that also made a place called hell, which is not a place where demons rule, but a place where all sinners and rebels burn under the pure judgment fire of a Holy God, who does this in complete justice and righteousness. Once again, as mentioned in my previous comment, what would one make of Paul clearly being allowed to be tormented by an emissary of satan, and by God's actual sending for the purpose of preventing Paul from becoming proud? Clearly one might say how can a loving God do such a thing? Surely this must be against His nature? But this is a premature understanding and conclusion, primarily because of the promise that God is working ALL things for good, and all means all, sickness, persecution, trials, suffering is all working for us a glory that cannot be compared to anything in this life.
Now regarding your statement: "In short, He does not inflict illnesses on people without that essential element of enforcement filling out the reasonable judgements He makes."
The judgment was as follows, sin equals death, and sin dwells in the flesh (Romans 7), this is why we still deal with death as Christians. The fact is clear, we are all in a fallen world living in fallen flesh, therefore still under the curse or result of the fall, that is in our flesh. Under this very premise, it completely makes sense that we would therefore still suffer in this life. But it is God in His grace that turns that suffering to ours and His glory, as it makes us more like Christ in sanctification. This concept is quite clear from scripture, Paul even saying that He hasn't yet obtained it yet, but strains onward to make it His own (the completion of Salvation that comes when we see Christ face to face in glorification).
Regarding your statement: "No believer should live with a fear that God will turn on him and smite him in a human type of anger. He is good, His works are good, and no one will be able to sustain a charge against Him that He broke His own law!"
Absolutely, but that doesn't mean that we cannot grieve God (Ephesians 4:30) and move Him to discipline us as a loving Father is supposed to do. This is clear from 1 Corinthians 11:27-32 (also mentioned in previous comment). And indeed, His works are GOOD, that not only includes the salvation of man but also the judgment of man, they are all GOOD. And although our earthly parents were not perfect in that their disciplining of us was sometimes mixed with anger, God who is perfect, disciplines us in perfect love, but the clear reality is that it is not beyond God or against any of His attributes to do so, even using the devil himself for our good (as was the case with Paul). THIS is what it means that He is sovereign and the hope we find in the promise that He cases ALL things to work for our good. This present life counts for nothing. This flesh is but a tent in my pilgrimage to the hope that awaits me, when I leave this earth to join my Savior and my King, where He will personally wipe away every tear and cast death and hades into the lake of fire, when salvation is completed and fully actualized and all the promises fulfilled, which is not yet, but will be, as His Word declares.
| 2014/1/15 1:25||Profile|
| Re: |
i think brother mike is right on the ball
if we believe in a unaversal atonement that is apropraited by faith ,,that is it can be efected towards everyone by faith , it was intened to save the world ,,then it would be imposable to seperate the healing side of the atonment ,and say it is not intended for the whole world ,that would be inconsistant ,,,tho a 5 point cavinist could say it was a limated atonment in the area of salvation and healing due to souvern election,,
i would like to acualy start a topic on is healing in the atonment i used to say no its not ,,,the by his strips we are heal is only talking about salvaion ,,but then i saw that was not true in scripture
even though god is sourven and is the author of sickness he also created satan and the demons and authored there fall and the fall of man kind in the the realm of the demonic ,,for the whole world lies under the sway of the evil one ,,,and many sickness are directly linked to posseion and the others are linked to the fall from grace ,,
when god so when some one is born blind and mute as the scriptural example our brother showed ,,it is acording to gods souvernty on one hand and acording to the fall and the vexations of the devil and his demons who have free rain over all creation ,,for he is the god of this world
we see in the story of job that when god brought a sickness to job it was done through the devil all the opresion and disarters came by god souvren hand through the devil ,, so in that scence it gods souverny but scripture points to the devils and demons as the fundamentl cause under the sourventy of god ,,thatb scripture points examples of gods supernaturel judments can also come by angles ,,but that would be another topic
paul talks about handing the sinning christian over to satan for the destuction of the flesh ,,it would seem apropraite to say this is the most comon expresion of what is going of when god judges in othere situation that are in the same context so to speak
no where does the bible say that pauls thorn in the flesh is a sickness ,,but if we look in to scripture the thorn is mentioned regarding a demonic drivern person or people persacuting the godly
where does it say healing is not fully acualised till judment day and glorafication day ,,,iv not read that but the scriptures does say believers will lay hands on the sick and they will recover
and is there any sick among you ,let them go to the elders of the church ,and let them prayer over them anointing them with oil in the name of our lord jesus christ
and that prayer of faith will save the sick and the lord will raise him up .full stop
what are we ging to listen to brothers and sisters scripture or theoligy based on experences and bad exijesus
lastly haw is even posable to pray with compleat faith with no doubting like jesus comands us to ,,if we have kinks or craks in our sheild ,by having a belif system in place that casues us to believe that it not gods will to heal or ,,i submit to you brothers and sisters that one cant pray with 1oo percent faith all the time for all sick and opresed with out believing god will heal all that we pray for ,,we need to cast out that type of doubting out of our hearts
wher did jesus say theses words that i here well meaning christians ,speaking ,,,,,,
its not gods will to heal that man
or gods useing this sickness to humble that man
did jesus or the apostals say anything like that
NO he did not last time i look at scripture
but the only example in the new testament to my knowlage ,about some one not geting healed ,jesus said it was your lak of faith and theis one only comes out by prayer and fasting
jesus says just do it ,heal the sick he didnt say think about or creat doubts in your minds weather it is gods will
it is a comand that is gods will ,,you dont need a word of knowlage ,,do it now noing that healing is provied in the atoment and it a unaversal atonment ,approraited by our faith or there faith ,,if the sick person doesnt have the faith ,then for gods sake for his glorys sake you have the faith ,,just like peter did in the book of acts ,,gold and silver i have none but what i have i give to you
IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST ,RISE UP AND WALK
i singed that last line with tears and tremling with brokeness and joy
when you pray ,believe that you have what it is that you prayed for and it will be done for you that my father will be glorified
christs atonment has givern this to us ,,just believe it and go and heal the sick ,sore and demon possesed
freely you have recieved ,,freely you shal give
blessings brother gary
| 2014/1/15 1:59||Profile|
| Re: you will find whatever you seek after|
Just a few passing comments that struck me after reading this thread.
1) SOZO is a ministry idea that is based out of Bethel Church, Redding California. I have been associated with a few churches in Houston who have brought this "course" to their congregations. I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand there is some truth taught that God saves, heals and delivers, but on the other hand, I am skeptical of promoting a "God Healing Clinic" without determining if the patients are even born again. What good will it do to dig into the past of a patient, digging up all kinds of trash, if there is no effort brought to get to the root of the problem. In many cases...the people who are sick and suffering are simply not saved...they do not KNOW Christ. If this is not addressed, dealing with sicknesses of the mind and body will only produce a temporary reprieve at best.
2) I know people who have gone through the SOZO course and what they have told me is that it is very intensive...a lot of digging into the past life and sin of the patients is done by well meaning christian counselors. I have a huge problem with this in that it is very unhealthy to unload deep and person family issues on strangers or with leaders in churches. For sure some people can be trusted but once you start to air the "dirty laundry" around other christians, these things are not easy for them to forget and you will find that "people talk". I am not saying that confessing our sins to one another is not healthy but what I am saying is be very careful who you talk to and how much you dig up. My advice is to confess you sin to the Lord and leave it under the blood of Jesus. Little is to be gained by digging up the past and in some cases I have heard that the continual digging and prodding has produced tremendous guilt that was previously not there before these intense counselling sessions.
3) YWAM employs a similar technique to dig into the dirt on their students, except they call their sessions, "Plumbline". All students are required to attend and are assigned a Plumbline counsellor to who they are asked to "spill their guts" and dig up each and every horrible thing and sin etc from their past. It is quite possible that some who are helped by this but it concerns me that these sessions are documented and talked about amongst the staff of these organizations. Again, a stigma will be cast over certain people, depending on what is dug up and this will affect them going forward.
4) Finally regarding the comments here about God heals vs God doesn't heal. I find it interesting that some people like MacArthur would go out of their way to prove that God no longer heals or that God is the author of sickness. You know, if that is what you want to believe, then more power to you! But for me, I prefer the gentle ignorance of believing that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever and if He healed yesterday...then He will forever be our healer. If you do not want to believe that, then you will probably never ask in faith for God to heal you and your loved ones. I find that the things that we "go after" in God are the things that we tend to receive.
I shudder to think of what it might feel like to be always wondering if God wanted to help me in my distress, whether it be the forgiveness of my sins, the overcoming of the power of sin, the renewing of my mind, the deliverance from strongholds and habits, the healing of my body or the enduring of His power on my life for ministry. Generally speaking God will deliver the child of God from all of these things, but they are obtained by faith. Let not the double minded person expect to receive anything from the Lord.
Why look for reasons for God to NOT want to help you? But again, if that is your thing, don't let me stop you:) I prefer to seek God and to encourage others to believe Him to make manifest to me and my household all that His word says He will do for His children. Not every prayer is answered and sometimes prayers take much time before they are answered, but we do not lose hope, we continue to look to Christ as our Savior, Healer, Deliverer and King!
| 2014/1/15 8:31|
| Re: |
I agree with you that no ministry should be ministering to non belivers other than to minister the gospel to them so that they would be saved and receive eternal life. No deliverance ministry should be ministering deliverance to anyone who does not want to repent of their sins.
I also agree with you that with many ministries that are ministering inner healing, there is both truth and error mixed within it. There is also a lot of psycology mixed in with those that are trying to bring you back to your past even to the point where you were born. The Holy Spirit is able to deal with past hurts, and Jesus Christ was anointed to heal the broken hearted, to set the captives free, and open the prison doors. God has anointed His sons to do the same thing, but it is not through the process of bringing them back to their painful memories, but it is through the anointing of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. There are many Christians that have been wounded. There are many Christians that need to be healed in their emotions. Counciling alone is not going to get it. One thing that I do believe that these ministries are doing some good is that many times they are helping believers to get to the root of the problem.
Cleansing Stream is a ministry that was founded by Jack Hayford and is being used in many Assembly of God Churches. For the most part it is a good ministry and is helping a lot of people. There are many wounds that Christians could be free of if they would obey the Word of God to forgive those that have hurt them. Many Christians are suffering from demonic oppresson through unforgiveness, and when they do forgive, they are immediately released and healed.
I do not know much about SOZO ministry, but ministries such as Cleansing Stream lead Christians in many prayers of repentance, and deliverance is also ministered where there is demonic oppression.
It is important for us to allow the Lord to heal us inwardly, because much sickness is the result of emotional and mental problems. Worry and stress over a long period of time will definetly have negative effects on our physical health.
| 2014/1/15 9:32||Profile|
South Yorkshire, UK
| Re: |
Thank you for your thoughts, opinions, considerations and replies to my original enquiry. It has been very much appreciated.
We had an open meeting at our church earlier this week where sozo ministry within the church was discussed. The outcome is that it has stopped at present. However, praise God, it didn't devolve into a for/against slanging match, but a genuine time of fellowship amongst God's people, which was encouraging for all.
I have appreciated your comments, as I have before - thank you all.
| 2014/1/17 13:57||Profile|
| Re: |
There is a great audio sermon that can be heard by John Piper from desiring god ministry called Christ and cancer, it is free to download, also there is a brilliant thesis done on healing
Type in on google thesis on smith wigglesworth and john g lake
| 2014/2/11 1:45||Profile|