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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Two converted Jewish scholars exposing polluted teachings about grace ...

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Joined: 2009/1/24
Posts: 454


"When we get saved, God forgives all our sins, past, present and future." That statement has always rung a sour note in my ears, because it arises from the modern notion that salvation is just a legal transaction: Jesus paid the bill for your sins, making it legal for the Father to forgive you. Now all you have to do is "get saved." How do we "get saved?" By reciting the sinner's prayer.

In this way, evangelicals have revived the ancient error that salvation is not "regeneration" but "justification."

MichaelLaio pointed out, rightly, that someone who has been regenerated will not wish to continue in sin anyway. But our modern gospel is not producing those kinds of converts, so we should refrain from this hyper-grace phraseology that the carnal mind can latch onto as a rationalization for continuing in sin.

At any rate, I wouldn't be too happy if I was doing a prison ministry and someone introduced this doctrine to the people I was trying to reach.

Wayne Kraus

 2014/1/5 9:06Profile

Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa


This doctrine is related to the osas camp.

If you don't believe in osas then you will never believe that all sins have been forgiven.

I'm in the osas camp so hence my position from the original post.

Just a few comments.

1) I remember being at a leaders training time and the one speaker said these lines which I never forgot. 'Never beat the sheep because of a few goats'.

What am I saying, don't because there is abuse about grace add extra conditions to a contract that has everything to do with Jesus Christ and has nothing to do with us except our belief.

Its like we have to put conditions on something that is most certainly free, because you have those that are abusing it.

No friends, God is not mocked, God opposes proud people on both sides of the fence but gives grace to the humble.

A humble person will look to Christ every moment of everyday, and will be given grace, by God himself, thats an awesome thought.

A proud person will think about themselves and will not look at Christ Jesus at all. Just ask yourself the following questions should be a good indicator:

When you read that 'without holiness no one will see the lord', who are you thinking about, if its yourself you are proud.

When you hear that because of grace you can sin, who are you thinking about, if its yourself you are proud.

There is no distinction here, both are deluded and have missed the point of the gospel!

2) The issue for me is not about hyper grace being an excuse for anything. Its an issue of the self righteousness tendencies resident in everyones heart. Its what God is dealing with us all about everyday of our lives.

Because some teachers/preachers having made grace a licence to sin do I disregard it, no I don't and neither did Paul. But Jude is quite clear what there end is.

Will there be goats in the last day who proclaim Christ but don't know him, absolutely. Will Jesus sift them, Yes!!

Will there be those who come to the wedding super without a wedding invitation, absolutely. Will they be exposed, Yes!!

3) From my perspective if you don't believe your future sins are forgiven you don't have a clear concept of sin.

The wages of sin is death!! Its quite clear

Some posters here have drawn a distinction between willful and and unwilful sins, God doesn't. Sin is sin..

The arrogance in our hearts is mind blowing, but not so mind blowing that that was/is me!!!! Thats us all!!!

Its like we tell God, we got this, our sin barometer is now properly calibrated to the atmosphere of heaven. All of a sudden we can properly gauge which sin is omission and which is commission. We have no more ability to keep track of our sins than we have to measure the distance between the east and the west!!!

No friends, if our future sins weren't forgiven we would be lost. I have said this before, and at the risk of doing what has been frowned upon is come with an agenda.

In Christ is all God the Father sees, I don't pop in and out of Christ because of sin. But if I don't believe that my future sins are forgiven that should happen and that is what I would believe, because sin and God cannot be in the same building. But, I am in Christ!!!!

You will live under a constant cloud of torment and anguish because we all fail everyday. The accuser of the brethren will pick you to pieces, willfully added and abetted by our religious conscience. It creates people who walk around with a fearful expectation that God will judge them for their sin. Friends, the punishment that we deserved was meted out on Jesus and by believing in him the full benefits of his work is given to me, thats grace.

Friends, God loves us and wants us to enjoy his goodness and share that with other people.


Zeke Oosthuis

 2014/1/5 10:57Profile

Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1930
Joplin, Missouri



As with all scripture, we need to look at what is said in context. Matthew 5:17-20

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The term destroy in verse 17 means to throw down or to destroy, much as we might throw down or destroy a building or a government. The term fulfill means to bring to an end, to accomplish, or to complete. Jesus did not come to overthrow the law, but rather to bring it to its end or to its completion. This is the reason He then begins to instruct the people that their righteousness must exceed that of even the scribes and pharisees (an impossible task in the eyes of these folks) if they are to ever have even a chance of inheriting the kingdom of heaven. Remember he concludes this chapter by saying that the only way to enter the kingdom of heaven by works is to be perfect even as God is perfect. Look at Rom 10:1-4 as it speaks to this very fact.

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Christ completed the law. The law required either perfection (impossible) or death (the penalty). Christ paid the penalty described by the law. He completed the law and brought it to an end as the means to obtain righteousness. Righteousness under the law was really just self righteousness anyway as the ordinances were carnal and requisite upon my own self effort in order to keep them.

That being said, Paul says in Eph 2:13-16 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Here Paul actually uses the word abolish in respect to the law. The term abolish here means to make void or render useless. In other words, the enmity that existed between God and me because of the holy law of a holy God that prescribed judgement for my sin has been rendered null and void. The punishment of the law no longer has any effect upon me. I am now at peace with God, made righteous by the blood of His precious Son.

Hebrews 8 is a powerful synopsis of what the writer of that book has been trying to say in the first seven chapters. He says that the old covenant was not faultless, otherwise there would have been no need for a new covenant. He sums up by saying that the old covenant has been superseded by the new and is now ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Jesus took away the law, the first covenant, so that He might establish the second.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say. There is a HUGE difference between the OT law, the old covenant, having been put aside for the purpose of ushering in a new and living way (Heb. 10:20) and the the idea of living in lawlessness. Jeremiah prophesied in 31:33 that the day would come when God's law would not be written on a tablet of stone or upon parchment, but would rather be written on our hearts. This prophesy is quoted in chapters 8 and 10 of Hebrews.

When a person is born again, regenerated in spirit (John 3), that person will now be guided and led, not be external, carnal ordinances with fear of death, but rather with internal, spiritual law that has as its motivation an active, vibrant relationship with a living God. I seek to live a life without sin, not because I might go to Hell, but rather because my Savior loved me and gave His life for me and has transformed me by the power of His Holy Spirit.

The OT law kept reign over a lawless man by prescribing a punishment so great that the man feared the punishment more than he desired the sin. The new covenant relationship with God through Christ writes a law on our heart that we submit to because we are born again and love our Lord.

I think sometimes we fear this a little bit. We worry that without some standard imposed from the outside, a person will get the wrong idea and think that grace is a license to sin. But that fear belies a basic lack of trust that the Holy Spirit can do His work quite well; better, in fact, than we ever could.


 2014/1/5 11:20Profile

Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1623



When a person is born again, regenerated in spirit (John 3), that person will now be guided and led, not be external, carnal ordinances with fear of death, but rather with internal, spiritual law that has as its motivation an active, vibrant relationship with a living God. I seek to live a life without sin, not because I might go to Hell, but rather because my Savior loved me and gave His life for me and has transformed me by the power of His Holy Spirit.

I only see you quoting again and again on Regeneration or being Born again. As I said in my earlier post, the problem with your doctrine or the doctrine of OSAS is they never look beyond regeneration. I too agree on Regeneration and the law of Spirit that is written in our heart. This law is way higher standard than the law of OT. If a man's life is a failure by OT standard then he is definitely failure by NT standard as well. Whether a person lives by laws written in tablet or in human heart as per NC, he still sins because law still exist. When a born again believer sins against the voice of the spirit he has to set it right by repenting.

1 John 1-8:- If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

The word repentance is used so many times in New Covenant with reference to Church which is the body of Christ comprising only of believers. One cannot turn blind to these scriptures and say that they are lie or false warning.


I think sometimes we fear this a little bit. We worry that without some standard imposed from the outside, a person will get the wrong idea and think that grace is a license to sin. But that fear belies a basic lack of trust that the Holy Spirit can do His work quite well; better, in fact, than we ever could.

You have to consider that Apostle Paul or even Jesus himself in Revelation had this fear and hence had to ask Churches to repent. Probably they did not have enough trust in Holy Spirit and enough knowledge in scripture as modern day Christians do!!!

Holy Spirit is a gentle Spirit and unlike Evil Spirit can never force a man to do something against his will. If a born again man decides to live by flesh by setting his mind on the flesh (which is very much possible as per Romans 8) then the Spirit will not force him to change his mind. But if the born again man is spirit filled and lives by setting his mind on the needs of the Holy Spirit then he will be empowered to do the will of God. It is a choice that man has to make everyday. He has to take up his cross and deny his flesh everyday as Jesus said. That is why we need to encourage each and every believer as long as today, to take up their cross.

As someone pointed out, this discussion is leading towards OSAS vs complete Bible. People who act asleep cannot be woken up, similarly people who willfully turn blind to major part of scriptures to hold a deceived doctrine also cannot be enlightened in one post or forum. I will refrain from posting on this topic.


 2014/1/5 12:30Profile

Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1623

 Re: Proudpappa


The alter call was an emotional experience, I was sincere every time I responded, I always was of the mind set that : "This time I was going to get victory over my sin and stop sinning"
The will was present with me; but how to perform that which was good I did not know.

I remember once responding to Alter Call during my early days of conversion. But it was not at all beneficial. I also remember hearing Paul Washer's sermon for a youth camp that made him popular, it put me in tears but again did not benefit me.

To me most Alter calls are done to just convict people of their sins and bring them forward. I once heard a very good convicting message preached in a public gathering organized by some Church. At the end of mentioning all the common sins in believers and how it grieves God, the speaker called those who are touched to come forward. Many came forward, they individually prayed for them and took their names and welcomed them to Church. It was as if the speaker was hired by Church to recruit members.

To me such instance is like a doctor who cuts open a patient and then shows him that he has a cancer and then asks him leave. He should also tell him what the treatment is. If the patient was not able to fight cancer before he knew it exists, he will certainly not be able to fight himself even after he knows the cancer exists. Same way a person who comes to Alter call if he cannot fight sin and live as an overcomer before he gets convicted, he certainly cannot do it after he gets convicted as well. Just by sin conviction alone a person cannot have an overcoming life. He needs the power of Holy Spirit. He needs the infilling of the Holy Spirit. The problem with these altercall is they do not tell the solution. They are only interested in knowing how many are willing to come forward, instead of helping them. A complete sermon of Grace will start with sin conviction and will end with hope that comes by trusting in Holy Spirit.


 2014/1/5 12:45Profile

Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


You've done good examining the problem Sree, and you came to the right conclusions.

Its all based on a partial view of OSAS, not the full Bible. What results in an understanding of grace as living by 'NO LAW' or actually lawless. That is always proof that something is wrong and the true light of understanding is missing. Hidden inside a spirit that is not based on the clear instructions (and clear warnings) of Jesus and all of the apostles. Every warning that it is possible to fall away gets ignored ("because if true it would be awful and many would be lost") face the reality - Many ARE lost. The Bible clearly teaches that MANY will be falling away, will get rejected by Jesus and even spit out.

That's the greatest fear that makes OSAS sound true in the mind of the fearful, that got stuck in a very early mindset of viewing these things and built their understanding of the gospel on such a weak foundation. If someone would exchange it for the TRUE fear of God they would find grace in repentance and stop teaching these doctrines of devils.

 2014/1/5 20:50Profile

Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa


A-servant, Sree,

the irony in this discussion is I feel the same way about doctrines that keep Gods people under a yoke of slavery.

From my side of the 'fence' it reveals a faulty belief system about and in the real nature of God and his redemptive plan.

But anyway, like I said first up, this is not going to get resolved before Jesus comes back, much grace to you,

Zeke Oosthuis

 2014/1/5 23:38Profile

Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


Sree found the weakness in the whole "lawless grace" false doctrine when he said:

"The problem is many consider the Christian life by grace as living by 'NO LAW' or lawless."

And it's always hidden in clever dogmas, that once you ask to explain and define, deflate to nothing because there is nothing solid just phrases without meaning. We should always ask what is meant by these phrases. Just because someone says "the law of Christ" or "walking in the Spirit" does not mean they have any clear biblical understanding what these things mean. These words do have a real meaning and real content, it's not talking about a spirit without content or law. Higher law does not mean "no law". Jesus could help our understanding, but he is now divided into a presumed OT-Jesus talking to "Jews" and NT-Jesus, that "never really talked to us" because His real teaching started after his resurrection. And if someone points out his exact words after his resurrection you will still reject them, because you already have a different opinion. That is a bad situation, Jesus basically can teach you nothing, you prefer another Jesus.

One reason for that is as earlier mentioned by just-in, Rom 8:2, It is talking about the law of sin and death, what is however not about God's law. Both are not identical, one states that if we sin we shall die, the other are instructions in righteousness, as expressed in the commandments. Which when rightly understood keep us from slipping from our path WHILE walking in the Spirit. Godly instructions for a 'lazy mind' or an 'inventive mind' that is weak enough to slip without guidance. The Holy Spirit will remind us about that, a religious spirit will not. You cannot forget to repent of your sins, except you have a religious spirit, then you're the one in charge of all of that.

Psalms 37:31  The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

That's new covenant reality already ahead of time

Psalms 40:8  I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Same here, he does not imply that the "the law of sin and death" is within his heart, he loves to do God's will as in 'His instructions in righteousness', because that is what people do that walk in the Spirit. That is the reason for the whole creation of humanity. A people that are a new creation in whom the Spirit of God lives. That of course not violates God's law, God does not oppose himself.

Since people in the old covenant cannot understand that reality, they will fight it till the cows come home, trying to understand the new covenant with their mind, not with their heart. Unless of course the speech of their mouth directly relates to what's written on their heart, i.e. missing of God's law is a sign for being in the old covenant, not born-again yet. That's where the reasoning comes from, the religious spirit doesn't understand that reality, and will never evolve into The Holy Spirit that actually loves His own instructions of our Father that is in heaven because it helps us believers to not slip into deceptions of the lawless one.

The lawless spirit does not accept such instructions and guidance because it is believed to be bondage and restricts personal freedom. He does not accept the freedom to do what is good either. It's absurd reasoning if you truly love Jesus. The spirit behind it is a spirit of lawlessness and rebellion. It's self-sufficient, not looking for or accepting a higher authority, everything in that regard is just lip-service. The lawless ones will not accept God's will or Spirit to rule over them or guide them. A spirit of 'undefinable content' is preferred, because there is enough room to do whatever suits YOUR will. Of course your steps will slide over time, we are not our own little gods that are establishing our own kingdoms.

Second opinion from a different view as found on file:

quote "Now everybody today seems to think that law of sin and death that we have been set free from, is the 10 Commandments. Is the 10 commandments the law of sin and death? NO! Absolutely not!  The 10 commandments is NOT the law of sin and death. What is the law of sin and death? The law of sin and death is found in Romans chapter 6 verse 23 ... For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The wages of sin is death. That is the law of sin and death. The soul that sinneth it shall die. (Study Ezekiel 18) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. That is the law of sin and death.  Now, we are going to get set free from that law of sin and death, IF we stop walking after the flesh and start walking after the Spirit. Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are IN Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Faith is to know what God said, and to walk in it. To know what God said, and not walk in it, is rebellion. You see how faith is really obedience. 

Quote: "Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if ... IF...stop sign....what is the condition, there is a qualification or stipulation before I can presume this .... IF means something important. UNLESS you meet the condition you better NOT assume, believe, or presume you may have it without meeting the condition. You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF, IF you meet the condition. What is the condition? IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell IN you. That is the only way. You have the Spirit of God or you have a deceiving spirit. If you believe once saved always saved you have a deceiving spirit. You can be delivered, but, first you have to be able to HEAR that you have picked up a deceiving religious spirit. Most today will not have ears to hear the Spirit of Truth. The deceiving spirit does not empower you to keep the commandments, the deceiving spirit will give you excuses and rationalizations for violating the commandments. The Holy Spirit causes you to keep and love the Royal Law, and the deceiving spirit causes you to excuse and rationalize your disregard for the Royal Law. The deceiving spirit will make you think you are very spiritual when you are carnal."

Compare and test against 1 John and 2 John. Gnostics of old had the same problem as religious people today, and didn't know who is correct on these issues. John told them how to discern truth and to overcome their head knowledge.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.  --- If we think we are a son of God and do not love, keep and fulfill His commandments, we are deceived and NOT a son of God. We know we are a son of God when that Spirit of Holiness is causing us, and helping us, and empowering us to stop sinning. Then we are really getting transformed, not just positionally, but also practically. Or "in real life".

 2014/1/6 20:45Profile

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


I had strong feelings of rebuke the other night as to becareful not present myself as more spirtual than I trully am and also not to be giving my testimony with underlining maliceful punches towards other posters that I have read and may disagree with.

I still have many areas to grow in, I still have struggles, I still find myself falling back under the law, I do not have it all figured out, but I hope my testimony can be a help to some.

previously I wrote : RE: /// The alter call was an emotional experience, I was sincere every time I responded, I always was of the mind set that : "This time I was going to get victory over my sin and stop sinning"
The will was present with me; but how to perform that which was good I did not know.///

When I would step out into the isle, I could invision the spirtual breakthrough that ought to be fixing to take place, but when I would get to the alter, I could not concentrate, some scriptures would be read to me and we would pray, I would go back to my seat with somewhat a peace but not the peace which passeth all understanding.

The peace was instead a peace that I did what I needed to do.

But the folly of this was revealed to me by the judgments that my baptist fellowship at the time was placing on the COC that taught that water baptism was essential for salvation.
We where taught to judge them as false converts because they where supposedly trusting in there works of water baptism instead of on Jesus. but the hypocrisy that I seen in all of this was it appeared to me that we seemed to be trusting in our alter call , decisionism , our own fleshly efforts of stop sinning and prayers instead of on Jesus.

At the time I did not know of anyone else whom had made this observation.
now I find many others here on si whom have made simmilar observations.

I want to be clear that I am not implying that no one is saved after responding to an alter call, I am sure that many are, I am just giving my testimony and the obstacles that seemed to prevent a breakthrough for me.

hopefully to be continued..

 2014/1/7 2:17Profile

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