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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : once justified, always justified?

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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
And yet another point to be careful on is the mixing of justification and sanctification. A man is justified by faith, but sanctification is ongoing through his time in the flesh. We must not fall into the Roman Catholic idea of mixing justification and sanctification so that we say an unsanctified man is an unjustified man. That was one of the points the Reformers fought against, and it would be a shame to put that yoke back upon people.


Finneyism comes pretty close to this.

However whilst being neither Calvinist nor Finneyist my own view is that sanctification in the sense of a Wesleyan second blessing is also 'by faith'. The progress of conformity to Christ, which I prefer to call glorification, is indeed a process but there is no sense of sanctification as a process in the Old Testament concept of the word; you either are or you aren't. I think we need to be sure we don't lose this decisive sense in our NT theology.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/14 13:53Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Are there false believers who are deceived? Certainly. Am I deceiving myself? I don't think so.



:-) I understand what you mean. I was pointing out in a round-about-way that certain doctrines can be bondage to a person depending on the emphasis and the "slant" it's viewed from.

Those that believe in "free-will" get accused of being in bondage because everything [i]supposedly[/i] rests on them.

Those that don't believe in "free-will" can also purport their view to be a bondage because they might not know they are elected unless they endure to the end.

Of course, both of them can't be completely right but when certain doctrines get emphasized over another it can be bondage to a person.

Then you have antinomians, which we all know are wrong. :-P


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Josh Parsley

 2007/5/14 13:58Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Finneyism comes pretty close to this.



What concerns me about alot of Finney's teachings is that they are built mostly upon moral righteousness. Much of the conviction people felt was because they had moral failures in their lives that Finney would say were sin, like too much sugar, drinking coffee, etc.

The effects of this are a self-righteousness so long as all your moral bases are covered, but Christ is not the righteousness that is in place and thus anytime the individual fails to uphold the moral law of acceptance with God, they beat themselves up, repent, and repeat over and over, and some fall away completely. The tragedy of this is that Christ may have never been their righteousness, thus of course relying on self they fail again and again, but there is only condemnation without the sweet confidence of CHrist interceeding before the Father on their behalf.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/5/14 15:01Profile
PassingThru
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Joined: 2005/5/7
Posts: 175


 Re:

I don't think Christianity is as convenient as "set and forget".

Revelations 2-3 refers a lot to 'overcoming' and 'holding on'.

[color=000099]
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; [b]He that [u]overcometh[/u] shall not be hurt of the second death[/b].

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already [b]hold fast till I come[/b].
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, [b]and keepeth my works unto the end[/b], to him will I give power over the nations:

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how [b]thou hast received and heard, [u]and hold fast, and repent[/u][/b]. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 3:15 [b]I know thy works[/b], that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, [b]I will spew thee out of my mouth[/b].
[/color]

Surely 'overcoming' here means we need to hold out until our individual 'races' are completed.

I can't see 'spewed out' as being forever saved. The 'outward' suggests they were once 'in'.

On the other hand I don't believe in a works based salvation :-

* Sin separates us from God.
* Jesus paid the price for all mankind.
* Not all of mankind will be saved.
* If I have faith in the sacrifice of Jesus I openly and willingly bring my known sins to God to be 'written off'.
* Once my sins are resolved, my relationship with God is restored.

I think satan was once 'eternally saved', yet used his own free will to opt out. I doubt God designed him with damnation in mind.

I think salvation requires man to maintain a willing attitude towards repentance. If we refuse to be vessels of honour, then we will be remodeled into vessels for dishonour.

[color=000099]
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: [b]so[/b] he made it [b]again[/b] another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
...
Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, [b]then I will [u]repent[/u] of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them[/b].
[/color]

Either way it's best to be willing clay. :-)

PassingThru

 2007/5/14 15:22Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
I don't think Christianity is as convenient as "set and forget".



Neither do I. Countless times in scripture we are exhorted to be strong and persevere. Anyone who believes that their faith is like a microwave oven is seriously under a delusion.

Quote:
I think satan was once 'eternally saved', yet used his own free will to opt out. I doubt God designed him with damnation in mind.



You think this is so or you have scriptural proof of it being so? Your last statement seems misleading. Are you saying that God created Lucifer not knowing he would fall or that when God created Lucifer, God wanted Lucifer to be in His presence for eternity?

Quote:
I think salvation requires man to maintain a willing attitude towards repentance. If we refuse to be vessels of honour, then we will be remodeled into vessels for dishonour.



Brother, I don't know if you meant to say this, but what you just said sounds like you believe that salvation depends upon what a man does.

 2007/5/14 15:37Profile
Psalm73
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Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 60
Arkansas

 Re:

There;s a lot to speak on, and I believe that Tyndale English reads better than modern "greekless" English.

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
TO me that is a foolish and unlearned question, did you not read Ezekiel 33?


Frequently.

Do you realize I put off your question to avoid strifes? At the lesat the K.J says it.
But here's how the supereasy reading of the 1526 Tyndale goes. It is going to show that this renewal of Christ's pure words and the conscience thereof. 1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up and knoweth nothing: but wasteth his brains about questions, and strife of words, whereof spring envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings
2Ti 2:23 Foolish and unlearned questions put from thee, remembering that they do but make strife.
Tit 3:9 Foolish questions, and genealogies, and brawlings and strife about the law avoid, for they are unprofitable, and superfluous.


Quote:
Do you not understand Hebrews 6:4-7?


I think I do

BTW what century do you live in? Your language is going to be very difficult for many of our brethren who don't have 16th century English as a mother tongue.


Next time you'll realize that middle english can easily be trained on the eye. Look I am 23 year old deacon and are you a seniour in the faith?
Actually I live in a modern city, but the trees the air the byrddes the sky are all God's creature and this modern invention society means no thinge to God.

Back to faith, you're faith is in men's doctrines, laydled with precepts of men and often Knox will rite precepts for murther.
Paul will settle the conscienses thereof, brothers in Christ. Some of you were made to honour, and the others are vessels fashioned (from the beginning) to dishonour.
Yet many chosen onto health are still committing such thinges as the dishonourable castaways.
2 Corinth 10:8-13 (W.T.N.T Online Bible) (best grek)
And though I should boast myself somewhat more of our authority which the Lord hath given us to edify and not to destroy you, it should not be to my shame.
9 This say I, lest I should seem as though I went about to make you afraid with letters.
10 For the pistels (saith he) are sore and strong: but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech homely.
11 Let him that is such think on this wise, that as we are in words by letters when we are absent, such are we in deeds when we are present.
12 ¶ For we cannot find in our hearts to make ourselves of the number of them, or to compare ourselves to them, which laud themselves: but while they measure themselves with themselves, and compare themselves with themselves, they understand nought.
13 But we will not rejoyce above measure: but according to the quantity of the measure which God hath distributed unto us, a measure that reacheth even unto you.

FInally my brethren deny not the grace of our Lord God, neither let the grace of God be in vayne


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Terry L Merritt

 2007/5/14 16:21Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Back to faith, you're faith is in men's doctrines, laydled with precepts of men and often Knox will rite precepts for murther.


Please translate this nonsense into modern English.

Quote:
Look I am 23 year old


Well in that case I have been studying the Bible for more than twice the time you have been alive. That doesn't mean I know everything but I do know nonsense when I see it.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/14 17:25Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

:-?

 2007/5/14 17:44Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Psalm 73: Look I am 23 year old deacon and are you a seniour in the faith?



Sometimes these threads take a trip for the surreal. Well, here goes...

.. [u]He maye not be a yonge skoler lest he swell and faule into the iudgement of the evyll speaker[/u]. He must also be well reported of amonge them which are with out forth lest he fall into rebuke and snare of the evyll speaker. [u]Lykwyse must the deacons...[/u] (I Tim 3:6-9 Tyndale)

As I recall Psalm 73 one of Ron's (Philologos') 'heroes' is William Tyndale. He is [u]very much[/u] learned in the scriptures. You could learn a lot from him. ;-)


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/14 17:53Profile
PassingThru
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Joined: 2005/5/7
Posts: 175


 Re:

JaySaved

Quote:


Quote:

I think satan was once 'eternally saved', yet used his own free will to opt out. I doubt God designed him with damnation in mind.

Quote:

You think this is so or you have scriptural proof of it being so? Your last statement seems misleading. Are you saying that God created Lucifer not knowing he would fall or that when God created Lucifer, God wanted Lucifer to be in His presence for eternity?





That's definitely an 'I think'. To clarify : I don't believe God designed satan for the purpose of being damned, although the possibility was always there. I think satan had a chance of being saved forever. I think God gives us freedom of choice but already foresees the choices we will make.

Without freedom of choice, there would be no virtue, nor sin, in any of God's creation. The Bible says the damned angels left their appointed positions. They weren't pushed.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I think salvation requires man to maintain a willing attitude towards repentance. If we refuse to be vessels of honour, then we will be remodeled into vessels for dishonour.



Brother, I don't know if you meant to say this, but what you just said sounds like you believe that salvation depends upon what a man does.



Strictly speaking, yes. Salvation is a a gift of grace, but man still needs to respond to it. If someone offers you a new car, you still need to accept it and register it in your name to be able to use it. An effort needs to be made, but you can't say you earned the car.

Salvation minimally requires us to apply the blood of Christ to our lives. The gospel is "turn from your sins and be saved." Decisions and action are required from our part.

The Bible has a lot of passages that say "hold on", "overcome", "make your calling sure" as well as "If you...then...". I think it's fair to expect that the same attitudes & decisions that brought us to Christ also need to be maintained throughout our existence.

Our freedom of choice is respected before we are saved and after we are saved. Nothing stops you from handing your new car over to the scrap yard a month later if you choose to.

In balance the Spirit urges and empowers us to repent and to seek the provided atonement in the first place - this isn't of ourselves. We still have a role to play in our own salvation though. We can either submit to the Spirit or reject Him. The Holy Spirit doesn't force salvation on anyone, so sadly many are called, but few are saved.

PassingThru

 2007/5/14 18:20Profile





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