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crossman4God
Member



Joined: 2005/7/1
Posts: 10


 Re:

I think the power we need to live right is to be found in the fact that He is "In us" If He is indeed in us, we will remain "In Him". Its all about JESUS, not us. The answer is to be more and more GOD FOCUSED, and not focused on our own power. Remember John 1:13, He saved us, not because we "WILLED" him to come in, but because HE WILLED it even before He made the earth.

Crossman.

 2005/7/1 19:32Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: once justified, always justified?

Hi Ron,

I must have totally missed this thread.

Quote:
What would his status then be; would he still be 'justified by faith' if his faith was no longer functioning?




Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:38, 39)

It seems clear from these passages that we as believers are continually faced with two options:

1) Believe unto the saving of the soul, i.e. "the just [u]shall live[/u] by faith."

2) Draw back until God has "no pleasure" in them and finally unto "perdition", which is the same word found in Matthew 7:13;


Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to [u]destruction[/u], and many there be which go in thereat:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth [u]unto life[/u], and few there be that find it. (7:13, 14)

It seems that the road of the just that "leads to life" is the road of "living by faith."


Quote:
The writer seems to be referring here to a 'case' of God's 'just' or 'righteous' one, whose 'life' is the product of his faith, and who might 'draw back'. So faith is not a single event but a state of heart, from which 'he' might draw back. What would his status then be; would he still be 'justified by faith' if his faith was no longer functioning?



When I look at the Greek word hupostellO and combine all my sources, it seems to be a word that means, "to lower the sails when sailing into battle to cowar or 'draw back' from the fight." It brings to remembrance the passage;

Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. (I Timothy 6:12)

The answer to the question may be as simple as asking what would happen if any soldier in wartime were to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutiny]"Draw back from the fight?"[/url]

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/10/1 18:10Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I came across an interesting statement in a private letter of John Wesley to Miss Hannah Ball of High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, dated Aug 14, 1771. Hannah Ball was a 'mother in Isreal' to several class leaders and sometimes wrote to John Wesley with questions. This snippet is an answer, I presume, to a question."Hardly 3 in 5 of those that are either justified or sanctified keep the gift of God a year to an end..."
[color=0000FF]from an Memorial of Hannah Ball, p77[/color]


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/14 6:21Profile









 Re:

before i was here at SI, before i even became anything serious about my relationship with God, this was affirmed to me in my spirit - that there is no thing called one justified always justified.after reading Hebrews again, and again and again, i am convinced with the utmost heart that there is no thing called one saved, always saved.... if that were true, once damned always damned would be same true but we all know it's not... i am sorry i don't have any eloquence in scripture to explain this but i have a few messages that are really dear to my heart that are here on SI if anybody is willing to give this man a consideration of what he is saying(which i am also wondering why he shouldn't be invited to the prayer confrence; he is a Godly man from everything that he says in his preaching; no making fun of things or joking, just straight to the point, calm and slow- but piercing, and the depth he goes is sometimes unbelievable...sorry for lifiting him up but i know how much he confirmed everything i had felt about this whole matter that was inside me...here they go:

start with the following:

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=13562]the vine 1[/url]

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=13563]vine 2[/url]

then go to any of the other messages by Richard owen Roberts.

by the way Mr. Ron, you remember bugging you about
Romans 3 and 4, do you see the correlation between what i was saying there, and the verse in Hebrews 10? that was what i was getting at...

 2007/5/14 7:00
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

A man professes to have faith and shows signs of a true love for God. Then for what ever reason, this man leaves the church, gets entangled into the world and shows no love for God.

One man says, "His faith was genuine, but now he has turned away from God and is reprobate."

Another man says, "His faith was never genuine to begin with because if it was genuine then it would have remained."

Was the faith genuine? The Apostle John would say No. In 1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

John says that the person who was with us but did not remain with us (i.e., lost his faith) was truly not with us at all. For if that person truly had justifiying faith then the person would have continued with us.

I ask another question, "Can trials cause a person to reject God?" Not according to Paul in Romans 5:1-5, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

But also (I am sure some people cringe when I use Romans 8 for the millionth time) God has predestined the believer to be conformed to the image of Jesus Romans 8:29, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." Philippians 1:6 says, "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." For those who are believers, the grace of God is working in you, training you to be conformed to the image of Jesus and the grace of God will complete that work.

If the justified do not remain justified, then how can God make this statement through Jude? Jude 1:24, "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,"

 2007/5/14 9:48Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
You will tell me if I am wrong, but isn't it a valid concept in 'Calvinism' that justification is by faith without works, but that justifying faith is evidenced by works? And that consequently authentic 'faith' is 'justified' by 'works'? So what would happen if the 'works' that were 'justifying' the 'faith by which we were justified' ceased?



If I may answer, works do not justify any man's faith. Works simply are a result of a person's faith. A true follower of Christ will show works as a result of faith. Where this gets tricky is that people can manifest works on their own without faith. The true test of faith are works that endure.

Jesus said to His Disciples in John 15:16, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you." (NKJV)

Anyone who does not continue in faith has not hope of heaven.

 2007/5/14 10:09Profile









 Re: once justified, always justified?

I guess my first question to this question is:

Is the writer dealing with lawlessness here or is he dealing with the means by which men are justified before a holy God?

I think that it has already been established that the entire book of Hebrews is a setting forth of the superiority of the New (Eternal) covenant over the old (temporary) covenant.

So, when we go into Hebrews 10, the writer is warning Jewish believers not to forsake the One and only Sacrifice that can save them from their sin and justify them before a Holy God:

Quote:
26"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth - ( True and Final Sacrifice which is Christ), there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


Quote:
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.




If I walk away from the Justifier (Christ) then what I walk towards is a Law that can only condemn me. If I walk away from Mt. Zion, I walk towards Mt. Sinai.

The writer is not dealing with individuals who are trying to live any way they choose (in blatant sin) and still trying to come off as believers. The writer is not dealing with lawlessness here.

He is writing to individuals who seek to be justified before a Holy God, and because of persecution (which Jesus said would come) they are, seemingly, drawing back from the Substance, (Christ) and thinking of returning to the Shadow (the Law, animal sacrifices, the temple)

So what does the writer do to try to get them back on track?

Does he give them a whole list of things that they must do?

No, like Paul in Galatians 4, he places the Law before them once again, and says:

Quote:
21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?



Do you not see what the law requires of you, because if you did really see and understand the perfection that the law requires, you would not try to justify yourself by it, but you would fall down on you face and cry out for mercy!

Again, the book of Hebrews is not dealing with lawlessness. The judaizers, Pharisees, etc that persecuted the believers at that time were not lawless men. They were men who exalted that law, yet without really hearing the law. (Look at the Apostle Paul's testimony throughout his letters)

For if a man really hears the Law of God, with and honest heart he will seek to find his righteousness from another source. This is the Gospel.

So what is the solution? What do we do if we find ourselves, or individuals we know, drawing back and maybe seeking to justify ourselves before God in some other way other than through Christ?

Questions?

1 - Can an individual who seems zealous for the things of God, maybe be someone who is drawing back?

2 - Do we always look on the activities (in our day usually defined as fruit) of an individual to see if they are truly in the faith?

 2007/5/14 10:15









 Re: once justified, always justified?

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Controversial territory I know, but I came across something this morning which challenged me.
But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him. (Heb 10:38 ASV)I am quoting from the ASV because it corrects the KJV sense.



However, it does not change the message.

Quote:
The KJV says 'if [i]any man[/i] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him'. The italics signifying that the translators have added these words in the interests of explanation. The 'any man' however makes it sound as though we are dealing with two different 'men'; the one justified by faith, and the one drawing back. In fact, it is the same man, hence the ASV's 'if he draw back'; 'he' being the 'justified one'.



They are one in the same.. take out the words in italics makes it "any justified man".

Quote:
This 'drawing back' is the word used of Peter's 'withdrawal' from fellowship with Gentiles; a first step of 'withdrawal' was followed by the second of 'separation'. Gal 2. In some ways the word is similar but opposite to 'hupomeno'; the Greek word for 'patient endurance'. Literally it means to 'remain under' something. The word for withdraw is hupostello; meaning to remove from under.

The contrast is seen in this section of Hebrews;Heb 10:36-38 Darby For ye have need of [u]endurance[/u](hupomonE) in order that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise. (37) For yet a very little while he that comes will come, and will not delay. (38) But the just shall live by faith; and, if he [u]draw back[/u] (hupostellO), my soul does not take pleasure in him.The writer seems to be referring here to a 'case' of God's 'just' or 'righteous' one, whose 'life' is the product of his faith, and who might 'draw back'. So faith is not a single event but a state of heart, from which 'he' might draw back. What would his status then be; would he still be 'justified by faith' if his faith was no longer functioning?

Hence my question; once justified, always justified?



Why can't the justified one fall away? Adam did.
Jesus was called the second Adam and went through the test to see if He would also.

 2007/5/14 10:17









 Re:

Quote:
If I may answer, works do not justify any man's faith. Works simply are a result of a person's faith. A true follower of Christ will show works as a result of faith. Where this gets tricky is that people can manifest works on their own without faith. The true test of faith are works that endure.



Amen! This christian walk is like a marathon, it's not how we start but how we finish. "Better is the end of thing then the beginning thereof"

 2007/5/14 10:21
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

(Please excuse my interruption on this thread, but Philologos, I started a couple of other threads hoping to gain your input on the Greek of two passages of Scripture. Those threads are under Scripture and Doctrine, and are called, The Hope of Righteousness, and, "If any man love God the same is known of him." I see those threads are about to disappear into cyber oblivion, so, not knowing how to otherwise get hold of you, am posting this note here. Perhaps you overlooked seeing them. I guess I needed to have flagged my other threads more obviously. ...My apologies to all.)
Thanks, AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2007/5/14 10:39Profile





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