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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : once justified, always justified?

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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

I would make a clear distinction between the world post Acts 2 and the world prior.



I believe that there is a distinction. However, this distinction is simply the enduement of God's people with power for ministry, so as to make all who have experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit a prophetic community. For that is the heart of Joel's prophecy.

Quote:

Men themselves post Acts 2 would be the house of God.



I believe men were always the house of God. For the temple on earth was a mere copy of the one in heaven. And the one in heaven is an eternal temple that has always existed in every dispensation. It's always been a reality, for it always has existed in heaven.

Quote:

This is a holy priesthood energized to offer up spiritual sacrifices to the Lord.



The idea of the universal priesthood of all believers is not merely a New Testament phenomenon. For 1 Peter 2's idea for this doctrine comes from Deuteronomy, in which God had called the whole of the nation to be priests unto God. And so long as the people of Israel exercised faith in God did they fulfill this spiritual calling.

Quote:

But it began in the heart.



Indeed, and such only was possible because of the activity of the Spirit, as Romans 3 makes clear. One cannot be circumcised in the heart apart from the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. This is something man in himself simply cannot do.

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As wonderful as was all the OT Saints enjoyed- I still believe the New Testament saints know the working of the Holy Spirit in a fuller way than at any time in history.



I agree that in the present age a greater working of the Holy Spirit has been wrought. However, in regard to regeneration and personal holiness before God, we stand the same. That is why we can look at the lives of the saints of old that made it into Hebrews 11, and be exhorted to emulate their faith and lives.

For such men could confess that they were not of this world. Indeed, as Jacob said before Pharaoh, "The years of my sojourning have been 130 years." Just as Hebrews says, they were strangers and exiles here on earth. Such could not be their confession if they were not men born from above. And because of such, men like Moses chose to suffer ill-treatment with the people of God rather than enjoying the pleasures of sin which is but for a season. The reproach of Christ was a greater treasure to these men than the treasures of Egypt.


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Jimmy H

 2007/5/21 11:15Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

I respect your view but I disagree with it.



:-)

Quote:

This verse is a call to continual filling it does not imply that the vessel is empty before it is filled. The tenses require that it really ought to be translated 'continue to be filled with the Holy Spirit'.



Of course, Paul hopes it be the ongoing experience of the believer, so that they are continually full. But there is always the threat to the believer that should they waiver in faith and live beneath God's purpose for them, that they will be in want of the fullness of God's Spirit.


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Jimmy H

 2007/5/21 11:20Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jimmy
I know that you are one to dig into things a bit deeper... have you noticed that 'being filled with the Spirit' is really Luke's phraseology and is not used by other NT writers. Paul is not referring to a crisis in Ephesians but to a steady process as it shown by the Present Imperative as distinct to the Aorist Imperative in John 20:22...

Luke seems to use the phrase 'was filled with the Spirit' as a generic term for a crisis event of the Spirit. It might be seen as a synonym for the Spirit 'falling on' people.

There seems, with some, to be an assumption that only the regenerate can be 'filled with the Spirit' but John Baptist was 'filled with the Spirit' from his mother's womb so are we to imply that he was regenerated at the moment of his natural birth? Surely not?

There are several Old Testament references which, by implication, point to 'being filled with the Spirit, but as a moment of special empowering. Joshua, Bezaleel and Aholiab, and Ezekiel all fall into this category but to read the accounts makes it very plain that we are reading about 'anointings' and 'equipping events' rather than transformations of character. This seems to fulfil the Old Testament pattern that the Spirit is evidenced primarily as a giver of 'power to do', rather that the New Testament pattern of 'power to be'.

What do you think?


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/21 11:39Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
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 Re:

Quote:
This seems to fulfil the Old Testament pattern that the Spirit is evidenced primarily as a giver of 'power to do', rather that the New Testament pattern of 'power to be'.

If I may join, what of Sauls change of heart in 1 Samuel 10. It seems that what happened to him is what you talk of as an NT phenom.

After that you will go to Gibeah of God, where there is a Philistine outpost. As you approach the town, you will meet a procession of prophets coming down from the high place with lyres, tambourines, flutes and harps being played before them, and they will be prophesying. 6 The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; [b]and you will be changed into a different person.[/b] 7 Once these signs are fulfilled, do whatever your hand finds to do, for God is with you.
8 "Go down ahead of me to Gilgal. I will surely come down to you to sacrifice burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, but you must wait seven days until I come to you and tell you what you are to do."
9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul's heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day.,bold mine.

I am sure that you have a good answer to that scripture. ;-)


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2007/5/21 12:27Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
6 The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you [b]will be changed into a different person[/b]. 7 Once these signs are fulfilled, do whatever your hand finds to do, for God is with you.
8 "Go down ahead of me to Gilgal. I will surely come down to you to sacrifice burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, but you must wait seven days until I come to you and tell you what you are to do."
9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, [b]God changed Saul's heart[/b], and all these signs were fulfilled that day.,"



This is the only reference of its kind in the Old Testament, as far as I know, so it deserves some careful examination.

Saul, as we know from the record, was a somewhat shy and retiring character and one very unwilling to take on the role of leader. After this event we find him acting very decisively and his independence ultimately becomes his undoing.

I am not sure what version you are quoting from here but most versions have the translation 'turned (in)to another man' in verse 6. Saul certainly was turned to another man in terms of his character as a leader, but this is not what I really meant when I spoke of the Spirit not primarily relating to 'character' in the Old Testament. I had in mind, moral character. Saul became a 'captain'. This is the word that God used when he sent Samuel to anoint him with oil. “To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him to be [b]captain[/b] over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon my people, because their cry is come unto me.” (1Samuel 9:16 KJVS) This word 'captain' really signifies a military leader and Saul did become such.

The other part of the quotation is that God changed, or turned, Saul's heart. This is the fulfillment of the promise of the Spirit of the LORD coming on him 'in power'. We are not speaking of 'heart' here as in the promise of a new one in Ezekiel but simply as the inner workings of a man. This passage specifically speaks of the Spirit coming 'upon' Saul and again is a different image to that when Christ promised that the Spirit would be 'in' them.

The sequel to Saul's 'change of heart' is found when he rebels against the word of God. “And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he. Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul’s servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.” (1Samuel 16:12-15 KJVS) Here we find that the equipping of the Spirit to be 'captain' is effectively given to David and removed from Saul. Saul's 'leadership' abilities were gone and his kingdom descends into chaos.

So although, superficially, this might seem an exception to the norm, on examination, we see that it only confirms the fact that this was a change not of moral character but rather a specific empowering for a specific task. It is also a sobering warning for those who interpret the fact that God's 'gifts and callings are without repentance' in an absolute manner; this anointing was not 'without repentance'.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/21 15:25Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
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 Re:

Quote:
It is also a sobering warning for those who interpret the fact that God's 'gifts and callings are without repentance' in an absolute manner; this anointing was not 'without repentance'.



Simply put, if the life of Saul is indicative of what we are to expect in regeneration (the New Birth) we are in deep trouble. This man disobeyed a direct order from God. This is an eyes wide open disobedience. This is the rebellion that is as the sin of witchcraft. This is stubborness with a high hand. Surely one could not believe that this man was born again? When he sinned he would not agree rightly with God on what he did. Further evidence he was not changed. When it was all said and done he wanted Samuel to walk across with him before the people as a show of acceptance or something. This all in contrast to David who was in a Psalm 51 experience.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/21 22:55Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

...have you noticed that 'being filled with the Spirit' is really Luke's phraseology and is not used by other NT writers. Paul is not referring to a crisis in Ephesians but to a steady process as it shown by the Present Imperative as distinct to the Aorist Imperative in John 20:22...



Indeed, the phrase is primarily Luke's. And indeed, Paul isn't directly referring to a crisis experience in Ephesians. However, I don't think such a thing, practically speaking, won't be without its crisis moments as Luke makes clear.

Quote:

Luke seems to use the phrase 'was filled with the Spirit' as a generic term for a crisis event of the Spirit. It might be seen as a synonym for the Spirit 'falling on' people.



Indeed. Roger Stronstad has shown quite convincingly (in my opinion) in his masters thesis "The Charismatic Theology of St. Luke" that Luke's crisis experiences and the vocabulary to describe those experiences are in continuity with what we see recorded in Kings/Chronicles where the Spirit of the Lord falls upon/comes upon/clothes various people.

Quote:

There seems, with some, to be an assumption that only the regenerate can be 'filled with the Spirit' but John Baptist was 'filled with the Spirit' from his mother's womb so are we to imply that he was regenerated at the moment of his natural birth? Surely not?



I don't believe John was regenerate from his mother's womb. For I think the Scriptures make abundantly clear that regeneration is impossible apart from receiving the word of God, and infants, let alone a still developing fetus surely doesn't have the faculty to do such. Then again, John seems to have been the good Pentecostal by jumping a pew in his mother's womb when Elizabeth came near a pregnant Mary. :-)

Quote:

This seems to fulfil the Old Testament pattern that the Spirit is evidenced primarily as a giver of 'power to do', rather that the New Testament pattern of 'power to be'.



I agree that to be "filled with the Spirit" in the Old Testament is primarily thought of in terms of "power to do." However, such is keeping with Luke's usage of the same terminology in Luke/Acts as well. In fact, the chief example of this is seen in Christ's own Spirit baptism and the baptism of the Spirit of the Church in Acts 2. Surely in the waters of the Jordan Christ did not receive power to be, but rather power to do. And likewise, the emphasis on Acts 2 is not power to be, but power to do.

And I agree that "The Holy Spirit" as a title in the Old Testament is rather foreign, and its usage is used in the contexts you pointed out. I think in regard to Paul's particular usage of the phrase, the phrase is used in a rather polemical way to combat those within the church who thought holiness to be attained through law keeping, rather than as something that comes from the Spirit of God. Rather than being attained through law keeping, Paul shows that holiness is and has always been attained through justifying faith. And such he attributes to the activity of the Spirit, who makes one inwardly what they need to be.

This is something that the prophets of old emphasized from time and time again, "I am the Lord that sanctifies you (makes you holy)." And eschatologically speaking, the prophets longed for the day when Israel would attribute their righteousness to the Lord instead of themselves, to confess "The Lord is our Righteousness!"


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Jimmy H

 2007/5/22 10:44Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I agree that to be "filled with the Spirit" in the Old Testament is primarily thought of in terms of "power to do." However, such is keeping with Luke's usage of the same terminology in Luke/Acts as well. In fact, the chief example of this is seen in Christ's own Spirit baptism and the baptism of the Spirit of the Church in Acts 2. Surely in the waters of the Jordan Christ did not receive power to be, but rather power to do. And likewise, the emphasis on Acts 2 is not power to be, but power to do.


Have we never talked about this? Why do you describe Christ's 'anointing' as Spirit Baptism?


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/22 14:16Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Have we never talked about this?



I'm sure we have?

Quote:

Why do you describe Christ's 'anointing' as Spirit Baptism?



Because it is at that time Christ received the power to do the ministry that God had called him to do. For it is after His experience in the Jordan that He went into the wilderness "full of the Holy Spirit," (Luke 4:1) and when He returned to Galilee it was "in the power of the Spirit." (Luke 4:14) This is in keeping with Luke's Spirit baptism language.


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Jimmy H

 2007/5/22 14:48Profile
Psalm73
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Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 60
Arkansas

 Re:

THe annoting has been used falsely o we know, how those covetous lucre filled charismatics are!
Here's John, I John 2:26-29 (W.TD.N.T) This have I written unto you, as concerning them that deceive you.
27 And the anointing which ye have received of him dwelleth in you. And ye need not that any man teach you: but as that annointing teacheth you all things, and is true, and is no lie: and as it taught you, even so bide therein.
28 ¶ And now babes abide in him, that when he shall appear, we may be bold, and not be made ashamed of him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, know also that he which followeth righteousness, is born of him

Now brother shal betray the brother to death, because I see that many in the churches truly donot love their brother Iacob, how suche are Esau and Cain. FOr these trusted in the world, and their works were evil, which God iudged them by.

I Peter 2:19-25
19 For it commeth of grace, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what praise is it, if when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye take it patiently? But and if when ye do well, ye suffer wrong and take it patiently, then is there thanke with God.
21 Hereunto verily were ye called, for Christ also suffered for our sakes: leaving us an ensample that ye should follow his steps,
22 which did no sin, neither was there guile found in his mouth:
23 which when he was reviled, reviled not again: when he suffered, he threatened not: but committed the cause to him that judgeth righteously,
24 which his own self bare our sins in his body on the tree, that we should be delivered from sin and should live in righteousness. By whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep which go astray: but are now returned unto the shepherd, and bishop of your souls

Can you carry Salvation and health in the same book, try the Matthe/Tyndale (o and n.t) printed out avaiable almost nowhere (call it by fayth)
For Lord thy salvaion is nie to them that fear thee,

For here is the seperation of those that walk after the course of this world, and those that verily walk after Christ
Revel 11:9 And the third angel followed them saying with a loud voice: If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or on his hand,
10 the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured in the cup of his wrath. And he shall be punished in fire and brimstone, before the holy angels, and before the lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up evermore. And they have no rest day nor night, which worship the beast, and his image, and whosoever receiveth the print of his name.
12 Here is the patience of saints. Here are they that keep the commandments and the faight of Iesu.

Too much debate to put out with water, I know what comes out of the hertes of men, so no suprise punches can be pulled.

T.Merritt

Risen antiSathanas
Christ will tread Satan under you feet shortly


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Terry L Merritt

 2007/5/22 14:50Profile





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