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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : once justified, always justified?

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ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

The scholars may have more insight into this, but is not regeneration an organic term and justification a jurisdic one.

My thinking is you may have the life but the trust in the justifying work of Jesus may wane.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2007/5/17 10:19Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
ZekeO on 2007/5/17 15:19:37
The scholars may have more insight into this, but is not regeneration an organic term and justification a jurisdic one.

My thinking is you may have the life but the trust in the justifying work of Jesus may wane.



I do think part of the problem is the result of treating words like 'justification' and 'regeneration' as though they were synonymous terms. However I do think Wesley was talking about losing the 'experience' rather than a consciousness of the experience.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/17 10:31Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

So a person begins with just a 'man'.
Then regeneration comes and God's gives him a new 'man'.
Then it is up to the person to decide whether or not to put on the new 'man' or the old 'man'. Once the new 'man' is put on can it be taken off? If the old 'man' is put back on can it be taken off to re-put the new 'man' on?

Getting confusing here. What does Romans 8:5-9 say: (King James Version)

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Two types of people, one type is after the flesh (old man) and do the things of the flesh, other type is after the Spirit (new man) and do the things of the spirit. But this still doesn't answer our questions above.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Once again, the two types but this doesn't answer our questions.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Interesting, the carnal mind (flesh, old man) is enmity to God. It is not subject to God's law and cannot be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those that are in the flesh cannot please God. The person who is after the flesh, the old man, cannot please God. So, how would the old man turn to the new man apart from a work of God?

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Paul makes a very good point here. Those who are after the spirit (put on the new man) have the spirit of God dwelling in them. Those who do not have the spirit of God dwelling in them are after the flesh.

So, Spirit of God means the new man is put on. No Spirit of God, the old man is put on.

But can the Spirit of God enter and depart people multiple times? If Wesley's theory is true, then the Spirit of God enters and departs from people depending on whether or not they are putting on the old 'man' or the new 'man'.

But the Spirit of God does not depart from a person, on the contrary:
2 Corinthians 1:22, "Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."
Ephesians 1:13, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
Ephesians 4:30, "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

Wesley's view of regeneration and justification just doesn't add up.

 2007/5/17 10:34Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Do you have any documentation for this thought?



I'm not sure that I do off the top of my head. Perhaps this afternoon I will flip through a few of his sermons to see if I can find anything. 20 pages of quotes I have on Wesley & scholars about Wesley is presently on my laptop which is in the shop! I think this notion comes from something I read on him though by Wesleyan scholar Kenneth Collins.


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Jimmy H

 2007/5/17 10:39Profile
KingJimmy
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Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


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Jimmy H

 2007/5/17 10:51Profile
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

KingJimmy,

Scripture interprets Scripture, it is not opposed to Scripture. Please explain to all of us why your scripture debunks the scripture I provided and please explain why the scripture I provided was interpreted in vain.

Thanks.

 2007/5/17 10:59Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
So a person begins with just a 'man'.
Then regeneration comes and God's gives him a new 'man'.
Then it is up to the person to decide whether or not to put on the new 'man' or the old 'man'. Once the new 'man' is put on can it be taken off? If the old 'man' is put back on can it be taken off to re-put the new 'man' on?


This is not the way I see 'the old man' and 'the new man'. Tenses relating to the 'old man' are relentlessly Aorist which is a tense which is distinct from continuous tenses.

The Darby translation trys to convey this idea...Eph. 4:22 (DRBY) [namely] your having put off according to the former conversation the old man which corrupts itself according to the deceitful lusts;

Col. 3:9 (DRBY) Do not lie to one another, having put off the old man with his deeds, Putting off the old man is never considered as a process in the New Testament but always as a decisive event, as is 'putting on the new man'.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/17 11:24Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

But can the Spirit of God enter and depart people multiple times? If Wesley's theory is true, then the Spirit of God enters and departs from people depending on whether or not they are putting on the old 'man' or the new 'man'.

But the Spirit of God does not depart from a person, on the contrary:



Psalm 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

Ephesians 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit...

Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life... 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God... 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?


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Jimmy H

 2007/5/17 11:27Profile
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Posts: 1131
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 Re:

So how can God say He 'seals' us with His Spirit if it can be taken away? What kind of 'seal' is that?

 2007/5/17 11:40Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Putting off the old man is never considered as a process in the New Testament but always as a decisive event, as is 'putting on the new man'.



So when a person decides to put on the old man, does the Spirit of God depart?

Then later when a person decides to put back on the new man, does the Spirit of God re-enter?

Just wanting to make sure I understand.

 2007/5/17 11:42Profile





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