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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Making homosexuality personal

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DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Making homosexuality personal

Homosexuality has come out with a vengeance in our society and those who push it say homosexuals are born that way while those who are against homosexuality say it is unnatural, against nature and against who God is.

Some Christians have homosexual kids and as a result support them in their ways and push for tolerance. It becomes very personal and therefore what parent doesn't fight for their kid? How hard is it for a parent to divide their love for their kid for the love of God and the justice of God in regards to homosexuality?

Growing up I knew a few guy who were effeminate. Always joked that they were gay as a result and in reality they are gay and probably were back then. So, how can some Christians be flippant about homosexuality and simply say 'repent' when it isn't so easy to be changed from homosexuality to heterosexuality?

If a specific guy I knew when I was younger seemed to be gay and later in life he 'came out' it was not unexpected and yet why is that? Because his mannerisms told us he was probably gay anyway. How does that happen and how is that supposed to be dealt with in regards to God?

I have an uncle who is gay. He was engaged to be married at one time when I was very young. His fiancee happened to come home and find him making out with another male. She left and was never seen again. Since then he has continued on that journey but I do not know if he is sexuality active because I have never heard of him talking about any boyfriends or mentioned any men to anyone in the family. Yet, he behaves as a homosexual.

Homosexuality disgusts me to the core of my being. I find it revolting when seeing homosexuals get even remotely intimate and yet some of them have seemed to be that way when they were in elementary but didn't really know it. How does a Christian really deal with it?

John


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John

 2013/12/4 16:12Profile
tbsounde2
Member



Joined: 2009/2/11
Posts: 179
Los Angeles, CA

 Re: Making homosexuality personal

Hi DEADn,

You bring up a very important point in the whole homosexuality argument that is raging on today. I personally believe that the devil has done a quite a successful job distracting people from the main issue, more specifically, what I am trying to get at is this issue of if homosexuality is primarily nature vs nurture. I believe that it can be nature, nurture, or both, and that it varies from person to person. There are quite conclusive animal studies also which have been done that indicate that genetics can play a big role. BUT, this as many Christians fail to realize is NOT the point we should be arguing, because the fact of the matter is that we are ALL sinners from birth. For example, no one had to teach me to lie and steal things, this is just my sinful nature I am born with. Also, a sexual impulse can be found in almost every human being which is something that is literally hard-wired into us, but that doesn't make it alright for me to sleep around with as many people as I can find. For the person who one would consider to be born with homosexual tendencies, need to like the rest of humanity, deny the sinful desires aroused by their fallen nature, repent and turn to Christ and pick up their individual crosses and follow Him. The problem is not the fact that someone struggles with homosexuality or any other sin for that matter (struggle being the key word here), but the problem is when they try to justify it and claim that it is not a sin which is an outright heretical lie and will lead a person to hell. The bible is clear that homosexuality is detestable in the eyes of God, just as much as murder and adultery...sin is sin no matter how one tries to make it look "presentable"...God will not be mocked...sin must be called out as it is so that people can come to repentance through the preaching of the gospel and receive forgiveness and acceptance into God's family, there is no other way. And again, Jesus was absolutely clear in Matthew 7 that many will come to Him and emphatically say "Lord, Lord" and He will tell them plainly "away from me you workers of iniquity (workers of lawlessness who lived as if I never gave you a law to live by) I NEVER knew you."

To answer your question of how a Christian is supposed to deal with the homosexuality that is so pervasive around us, the only answer is love...that in our rebuke or correction, it is well seasoned with much GENUINE love and care for the person we are trying to instruct, whether it be a drug addict, a homosexual, a person addicted to porn...we show them the love of Christ and pray earnestly for them and speak truth to them and leave it in the Lord's hands to soften their hearts and bring them around. Pity, mercy, grace with a humble, kind, gentle, and patient spirit is what we are called to demonstrate to the world, not picketing in front of a gay parade saying that God hates them, because at the end of the day, we were at one time just like them, apart from the love of God because of our sins, but He loved us and that while we were yet SINNERS (enemies to God), Christ DIED FOR US! We preach sin, righteousness, and judgment and the gospel of Christ so that people can be reconciled as we were.


_________________
Will

 2013/12/4 17:13Profile









 Re: Making homosexuality personal

I would suggest spiritual warfare. from what I understand certain circumstances allow for unclean spirits to enter people, even kids.

I was subjected to pornography when I was in preschool and it brought them into me. looking back now I can see how one harmful event(or events) can really harm a person long term.

Jesus is very merciful/patient/kind to me, wanting me to come to shalom in him.

 2013/12/4 18:21
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1699


 Re: Making homosexuality personal

Quote:

So, how can some Christians be flippant about homosexuality and simply say 'repent' when it isn't so easy to be changed from homosexuality to heterosexuality?



It is absolutely wrong to believe that a person can be born gay and then asking him to repent. We should never let science deceive us. No one is born homosexual. Homosexuality is different from race or ethnicity. Men who behave like women and get attracted to other men have a bad childhood. They might be raised by single mother or received very little attention from Father due to divorce in family or step father thing. Hence the Gender that is well known to them from Childhood is female (Mother) and not male. All of us have sexual attraction towards the gender we know the least about. Hence such men get attracted towards other men who are least known to them. Sexual abuse in young age also causes such abnormalities. But most of the Homosexuals are actually people who wanted to try something different and ended up liking it.


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Sreeram

 2013/12/4 21:36Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1699


 Re:

Quote:
I believe that it can be nature, nurture, or both, and that it varies from person to person. There are quite conclusive animal studies also which have been done that indicate that genetics can play a big role. BUT, this as many Christians fail to realize is NOT the point we should be arguing, because the fact of the matter is that we are ALL sinners from birth. For example, no one had to teach me to lie and steal things, this is just my sinful nature I am born with. Also, a sexual impulse can be found in almost every human being which is something that is literally hard-wired into us, but that doesn't make it alright for me to sleep around with as many people as I can find. For the person who one would consider to be born with homosexual tendencies, need to like the rest of humanity, deny the sinful desires aroused by their fallen nature, repent and turn to Christ and pick up their individual crosses and follow Him.



So you agree with science that Homosexuality is genetic? But you want believers to rebuke them and make them carry the cross, there by asking them to be attracted to women which is not a natural thing for them? Or you want them to remain single?

I am just trying to understand your point, I always believed Homosexuality is a situational thing due to wrong upbringing of Child. It cannot be genetics no matter how Science tries to prove. I have placed my arguments in my previous post.

I agree with you about fallen human nature like lies etc. But Homosexuality is different from lies, one can take the cross and speak the truth, but one cannot take the cross and act like he is sexually interested in a women when he is not.


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Sreeram

 2013/12/4 21:46Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

I don't agree that someone is born gay BUT there is something to say when a boy grows up and becomes very effeminate and that eventually leads to homosexuality. What is the root we are looking at in this. This is something I am trying to understand because when something like that seems to start young it isn't easy just to turn away from it.


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John

 2013/12/4 22:01Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 703
San Diego

 Re: One more opinion...

From what I have seen, studies that suggest homosexuality to be of a genetic origin are written by homosexual scientists. They hedge their bets on an elusive homosexual gene, grasping for that ultimate golden goal where the perversion can be labeled "normal." I have studied enough anatomy and physiology to know that men and women are carefully designed to be sex partners only and exactly according to the way God set it up- one man, one woman, monogamous for life. Not the appropriate place to go into detail- but the science is there.

The drive in people for sexual fulfillment has always caused human minds to wander off in a myriad of fantasies. Satan has latched onto this convenient handle to steer millions into a futile pursuit resulting in his deadly victories. He has also left a lot of people in confusion and despair through some sexual trick, often because the damage can be so permanent. Deeds done cannot be undone. We all probably have our own tales of grief/ testimonies here.

Satan seizes upon that most basic human need to be loved by someone else and makes sure that person is not God. He is able to confuse love, sex, and intimacy- turning them against each other and of course the Father. Love and lust are the same in Satan's handbook.

The law of God is sexual restraint. God is quick to acknowledge that the sex drive is strong, and restraint is difficult. But when we work this out successfully, there is a good chance we will be happily married and have a walk with God that knows no shame. For many, it will be much harder to get to a place like that. In any event, letting oneself follow an undisciplined, unrestrained sexual lifestyle will result in unhappy circumstances- whether it be hetero or homosex.

It never was about genetics, just shame and guilt. All Satan wants is a lock on his victims so that they will never turn to God for salvation.





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Tom Cameron

 2013/12/4 23:07Profile
onemite
Member



Joined: 2011/9/19
Posts: 168


 Re:

I wish I knew the answer. I toss with the same questions.
I don't think a person is "born" gay, but as to when that swtich in thebrain takes place, I don't know. I have heard arguments contributing upbringing and traumatic experiences as well as the argument that a gene may be detected to show a person is predisposed to homosexuality.
In my mind I make a comparison- Even IF they were to "find a gene" it does not give a person the okay to go with their feelings if it is contrary to God's will for us anymore that it would be okay for one who is said to be born with the "alcoholic gene," as in the case of American Indians, to just go ahead and throw resistance to the wind and drink simply because "they were born that way."

Everyone here has added important points to consider.

tbsounde2- well said."how a Christian is supposed to deal with the homosexuality that is so pervasive around us, the only answer is love...that in our rebuke or correction, it is well seasoned with much GENUINE love and care for the person we are trying to instruct, whether it be a drug addict, a homosexual, a person addicted to porn...we show them the love of Christ and pray earnestly for them and speak truth to them and leave it in the Lord's hands to soften their hearts and bring them around. Pity, mercy, grace with a humble, kind, gentle, and patient spirit is what we are called to demonstrate to the world, not picketing in front of a gay parade saying that God hates them, because at the end of the day, we were at one time just like them, apart from the love of God because of our sins, but He loved us and that while we were yet SINNERS (enemies to God), Christ DIED FOR US! We preach sin, righteousness, and judgment and the gospel of Christ so that people can be reconciled as we were."
I agree wholeheartedly.

 2013/12/5 0:03Profile
tbsounde2
Member



Joined: 2009/2/11
Posts: 179
Los Angeles, CA

 Re:

Hi Sree,

I will try to make my reply easier by breaking up your comment into segments and addressing each separately:

"So you agree with science that Homosexuality is genetic?"

Science is an important tool that God has given us to better understand Him and all that He has made. And although I don't agree with every conclusion made by different scientists, science itself is not contradictory to faith but rather strengthens and upholds it. It is our godless culture that has created a false dichotomy between faith and science which has unfortunately been working toward their favor, especially as many Christians have fallen victim to said lie and try to run the complete opposite direction, practically shunning knowledge. This is one of the many reasons why we as Christians are labelled as "ignorant" today. They have set the bait and we have taken it in the sense that they try to argue about genetic predisposition as a means to legitimatize homosexuality and we get hung up on that instead of getting to the root, by making them understand that genetic predisposition doesn't matter because we are all predisposed to SIN and are called to turn from our carnal (natural) self toward Christ and live.

And as I mentioned, I believe that homosexuality can be a result of nature, nurture, or both in a variable degree from person to person, so to answer your question, I agree with science that people can have a genetic disposition to make them more likely to be led to a homosexual lifestyle than another person but I do not agree that this sets a precedence to say that homosexuality is acceptable which is a false conclusion made from the studies.


"But you want believers to rebuke them and make them carry the cross, there by asking them to be attracted to women which is not a natural thing for them? Or you want them to remain single?"

To answer this question, I will start with a question: if you know of a brother or sister who is struggling (the key word here) with alcohol, will you continually rebuke them every time they fall and just leave it at that or will you try to bear with them their burden and demonstrate patience and kindness and show in a clear way that you actually care about them as a person and want them desperately to be set free from their bondage and remind them of the grace we have through the gospel of Jesus Christ? I don't know about you, but I struggle with a lot of things myself, and there have been times when people around me showed me such grace and spoke truth (the gospel) into my life which has helped me to overcome different sins. Remember, at the end of the day, homosexuality is a sin just like the sins you and I commit on a daily basis. Also, it is scientifically proven that babies can be born with addiction to different substances if their mother happened to use those substances during pregnancy, which can also manifest itself later on in life after a period of dormancy. I will address the last part of your question of this section at the end of my reply.



"I am just trying to understand your point, I always believed Homosexuality is a situational thing due to wrong upbringing of Child. It cannot be genetics no matter how Science tries to prove. I have placed my arguments in my previous post."

How can you be so certain that homosexuality cannot have a genetic component to it? Do you have biblical evidence to support this claim? We actually see a greater precedence for a genetic basis of sin in general from the fall of man and the idea of sin dwelling in our flesh. As far as I know, ever single human being is predisposed to sin and sinfulness is not something that is taught, it is just something that we are. Even King David says "I was sinful from birth." But an important point to make here is that we are not born committing every single sin there is known to man or will every single person commit every single sin there is to commit in their lifetime. Where am I going with this statement? To point out that every person struggles with different sins, even from their childhood, some being more prone to anger and rebellion to their parents than others, some more prone to steal and hurt other kids, while some are more mild and gentle. To me, it doesn't take much of a logical jump from here to say that some kids can also be more prone to homosexuality than others based on the reasoning stated above.



"I agree with you about fallen human nature like lies etc. But Homosexuality is different from lies, one can take the cross and speak the truth, but one cannot take the cross and act like he is sexually interested in a women when he is not."



Once again, I am not sure how you are coming to make such a strong distinction between homosexuality and all other sins. Are not all sins lies at the core?

Let me use an example utilizing the logic that you presented here (or at least what I understand from what you have written above, which wasn't all to clear to me): A boy struggles with lust and is "inflamed with passion" for girls, not just one, but almost every pretty girls he sees, it is his nature to do so. Now, is he unsaved because he has these super strong desires that he struggles with, as in he knows the thoughts are not pleasing to the Lord and he also desires to be free from them? Or let me use another example: I heard that married men to varying degrees struggle with unfaithful thoughts and desires and even moments where they have a sexual image in their mind that is not of their wife and that this is something that they struggle with for a long time. Are these men not saved because they struggle with such thoughts?

God sometimes seems to quickly bring deliverance from certain sins while allowing us to struggle with others while another person might have the very opposite happen where what you struggle with was more easily overcome by the other person while they struggle with something you easily overcame. Just as I know that I will probably struggle with lust for a long time but have no temptation toward homosexuality, I don't find it hard to believe that another person might not have much difficulty in regard to lust but have a great deal of difficulty in regards to homosexuality.

So at the end of the day, the point is not about arguing with the secular world if people can be born a homosexual or not and appearing ignorant by so easily brushing off any sort of scientific data saying "I don't believe in science", but getting to the more relevant argument that we are ALL born sinners and that gossip and slander and lust and rebellion against parents is just as much a damnable sin as homosexuality. And since we are all sinners from birth, we must deny our sinful impulses aroused by the flesh, and submit to God through Christ, and live.


_________________
Will

 2013/12/5 1:19Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1699


 Re:

Quote:

I don't agree that someone is born gay BUT there is something to say when a boy grows up and becomes very effeminate and that eventually leads to homosexuality. What is the root we are looking at in this. This is something I am trying to understand because when something like that seems to start young it isn't easy just to turn away from it.



So now that you agree that men are not born Gay, it should be environmental factors that make them Gay like single parenting or Child abuse. Something that affected them from Childhood. This is apart from those who willfully become gays, just to try something different and they constitute majority of Gay community. Regarding those who are effeminate from Childhood, the situation is same as those kids who are brought up by Terrorist parents, hatred is poured into their heart from Childhood. Now it is difficult for them to change as well, so do we ask them to continue in terrorism?

Apostle Paul writes to Titus about Cretans who are also naturally liars, evil beasts and lazy people. He is not telling Titus, that this is their nature so just adjust with them, instead he is asking Titus to reprove them harshly so that they will repent. I believe the same is applicable here as well.

Titus 1:12:-One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

Thus when a Homosexual comes to Christ he is no longer bound by his natural character, he should be willing to hate and change that natural practices of his that came from Childhood for the sake of Eternal life. Else the Church has to reprove them harshly.


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Sreeram

 2013/12/5 1:20Profile





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