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 Re:

For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.
(1 Corinthians 14:2-5, ESV)


Speaking in tongues today represents self glorification and self esteem. I don't believe this is within the context of the believer and the church. One should think of others more than themselves (phil 2:3). Prophesying is better than tongues, unless one interprets. Is this done in the churches? NOPE...most are all caught up in some for of "tongues" that seems more ecstatic and careless. No one interprets and if scripture is true, and we know it is...you shouldn't be speaking in tongues unless two more to interpret and if not you are to be silent. And if a non believer shows up and everyone speaks in tongues won't they think you are out of your minds? Why is this so ignored when people who claim to talk in tongues in the church and think its okay?

Lifeless instruments have distinct notes and sounds they have a meaning."And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle?" 2 Cor 14:8

"So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air." Isn't this what goes on? Everyone speaking in the air with no meaning or understanding. And for the edifying of themselves. Your mind is unfruitful, I would rather speak intelligible words with understanding to instruct than to utter ten thousands words with no meaning.

"Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue." Shouldn't this be enough? Nope because to many covet and treat tongues as an idol and the "works and justification" in their relationship and position with God.

I used to speak in tongues in my early Christian walk and as time went on, God began to show me and convict me of this. I do believe that there was tongues and maybe there still is, but I do not believe that it is what is going on today was the same in NT. I have seen to many fellow believers get so worked up that they don't speak in "tongues", they see everyone else doing it and ask themselves if I am born again and why doesn't God give it to me? Don't you see that this sort of thinking is destructive to the believer? there is nothing edifying about it when others go away feeling cheated, unloved and confused.

 2013/12/1 12:39
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
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I used to speak in tongues in my early Christian walk and as time went on, God began to show me and convict me of this. I do believe that there was tongues and maybe there still is, but I do not believe that it is what is going on today was the same in NT.
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I used to speak in tounges in my early Christian walk as well, and as an AG youth pastor, consented to all 14 fundamentals - including tongues as the intial evidence of Holy Spirit baptism. I can admit to this now, having long ago disassociated myself from the pentecostal movement: every time I spoke in tongues I had the irksome sensation that I was doing something that was unreal.

Being a Russian linguist and somewhat of a polyglot with knowldge of German, Italian and Spanish (and not to mention an anglophile in my own native tongue), I was pretty sure the syllables I was stringing together was not a real grammatic language, but rather sporadic dollups of emotionally-induced babble.

I kept at it, nevertheless, because, as pentecostals this was what we were supposed to do when the atmosphere got hot in the meetings. Everyone else's babble basically sounded the same too; the only difference was the intonation of the syllable-jumbling and stuttering. When more than one spoke, the resulting cacophony could be downright spooky; the little kids would actually get scared!

This, of course, cannot be of God, but when you are young in the faith, it is not so obvious. I am not saying tongues have ceased, but I suspect that 98% of what we hear today is fake soulbabble. This soulspeak is, by and large, undiscerned by pastors (because of the implications if someone were "fingered" one Sunday morning as a fake tongue-talker - it would then be open season on every instance of glossalalia every Sunday morning) and the house of pentecost would be divided. In other words, it is much more expedient to let the Emperor go on believing he is clothed with the gift.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2013/12/1 15:27Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Krautfrau


I still stand by what I wrote because, what I got out of the LONG article was the rules and regulations of how tongues were used in the Bible which obviously is how they should be used today! But I didn’t read it all b/c every time I did, I saw another rule (how –to) and it didn’t sit right.

My pastor from years ago also said, “If you say you don’t believe in something (like tongues), then you cast your lot with the unbelievers. Just say you don’t understand.” More people should take this high road.


_________________
Lisa

 2013/12/1 22:17Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re: Tongues again

I agree with sister Lysa. This arcile is flawed. There are too many assumptions to prove a point that Tongue is a medium of language to men. This might sound a right to a person of untrained mind, but a person like me who is used to placing logical arguments this article is a joke.

Quote:

It is obvious from the context of 1 Corinthians 14 that the purpose of speaking in tongues, or foreign languages, is to communicate the gospel and thereby edify the church. If the listeners do not understand the spoken language they cannot be edified.


There are verses in 1 Cor 14 like verse 13 that clearly says that Tongues are for self edification, which means it is addressed to God. A language spoken addressing to men is used to edify listeners but not self. Also asking to pray for interpretation means that the interpretation of tongues is also a gift, you do not need gifts to translate a human language. Only a divine language needs such gift.

1 Cor 14:2 clearly says that "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God;" - Tongue is not always meant for men to understand. But this article totally avoids verses 1 to 5 of 1 Cor 14.

I agree with Paul Wests post as well, I have heard from people who have the real gift of Speaking in tongues that most of the tongues they heard are fake. Like Brother Zac Poonen who admits that he has the gift to speak in tongues. Also the tongues that I have heard never sounded like a language, the frequent repetition of syllables make it sound like a rhyming music rather than a meaningful communication.

Regarding this article and people who debate on tongues, do you have the real gift to make a point on the gift? If not then you are like a blind man who is trying to define color. Absolutely useless.


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Sreeram

 2013/12/2 0:34Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 5185
Louisiana

 Re:

It is a shame when a moderator on this
site bases his conclusions concerning
speaking in tongues from his own personal
experience and not from scripture.

My experience in praying in tongues and
Being around others that move in the gift
and interpretation of tongues is one that
is based on reality and is in line with the
scriptures.

The abuse and misuse of tongues does in
No way negate it's reality, edification to the
believer, and a most valuable means of
prayer and intercession.

Mike


_________________
Mike

 2013/12/2 5:42Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
It is a shame when a moderator on this
site bases his conclusions concerning
speaking in tongues from his own personal
experience and not from scripture.


Dear brother, what does being a moderator have to do with the shame of sharing my experience? As I said, I am not a cessationist. I believe there are real tongues out there, just like there are real Holy Spirit healings, but there are also (and I hope you would agree) fake tongues and psychosomatic healings. In line with scripture, I test the spirits and unfortunately find failing scores most of the time in this area.

By what criteria are you judging they are real?

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2013/12/2 8:00Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

I remember the first time I heard the sweet dulcet tones of singing in tongues, I knew I had enter the house of God as it they sounded angelic to me. But that’s in the church I went to, and I can’t speak for the church that Paul attended. When I speak in tongues I am built up in my spirit, I do feel stronger and is usually during this time of prayer I find I get answers to the situations I face.

I can say that when I first spoke in tongues, unlike most I can say it was after being blown on by a wind, not that I am anyone special, I am not, but that’s the way God decided to do it with me. However I personally take comfort in this, as I am steadfast and sure that what I got came from heaven and is not false.

However that experience did not cleanse my heart from sin, so although I was blown on by a wind and filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues, I am convinced that it’s not the Baptism of the Spirit as in Acts 2. Was I changed, yes radically changed, do I operate in the gifts yes, am I fit for service, no most defiantly no.

Show me a man that’s been filled with the Spirit as in Acts 2 and you’ll find a man with a clean heart, a Holy man. He will not be like the showmen that we have in the church today, that are prone to hype up what’s going on and in doing so promote themselves (the flesh has not been crucified). No he would good, humble, gentle, full of joy, full of love and in control of self and he would promote Christ and his Kingdom.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/12/2 10:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Reformer said...

Quote:
"I used to speak in tongues in my early Christian walk and as time went on, God began to show me and convict me of this. I do believe that there was tongues and maybe there still is, but I do not believe that it is what is going on today was the same in NT. I have seen to many fellow believers get so worked up that they don't speak in "tongues", they see everyone else doing it and ask themselves if I am born again and why doesn't God give it to me? Don't you see that this sort of thinking is destructive to the believer? there is nothing edifying about it when others go away feeling cheated, unloved and confused."



What is up with these anti-tongues threads? I don't see any threads (are there any lately) being started to tell people they MUST speak in tongues, but there are a few threads where tongues is not only discouraged but discounted as well. This is a disturbing pattern.

With all due respect reformer...what do you hope to achieve with these comments? What good can possibly come from them? I get it that you personally no feel uncomfortable speaking in tongues, but why go on and "drop a doody" on everyone else? Just because you feel uncomfortable, must we also?

Based on your observations you are also suggesting that most, if not all speaking in tongues today is false. And this is because you say so? How would you know this, do you and you alone have the mind of the Lord? This is a dangerous position to elevation yourself to.

Why not just leave this subject alone? Just walk away...if you don't believe in speaking in tongues or have changed your mind about it, then that's fine, but why attempt to throw others, especially young believers into confusion or put a label on others and make them out to also being fakes like you were? Can you see that your comments are not edifying at all?

Quote:
"I do not believe that it is what is going on today was the same in NT."


This is your opinion and you are probably correct in many cases of modern charismania, but I would still caution you to be careful with rash generalizatioins. This is a murky subject that is difficult to understand via scriptural interpretation but that does not mean that real, genuine speaking in tongues has not happened and does not happen today and it may even sound like gibberish to others.

If a believer is rattled in their faith that Jesus is the one who baptizes them in the Holy Spirit, and grants them the gift of tongues, then it is also possible that we can unwittingly rattle them about their very salvation too! Did you really sense the "witness of the Spirit" when you were born again? Do you see how this brings uneccessary confusion to others.

This line of reasoning does far more damage to young believers than if we just work it out quietly between the Lord and ourselves and let others do the same. If they are born again then the Lord who is in them will show them that they are faking something or they have the real gift of tongues...they don't need you or I to be the judge of that.

Quote:
"I have seen to many fellow believers get so worked up that they don't speak in "tongues", they see everyone else doing it and ask themselves if I am born again and why doesn't God give it to me?"


This sounds to me like there is a lack of teaching or wrong teaching on the gifts of the Spirit. I have never encountered a single person who doubted their salvation because they did not speak in tongues, and I was a part of the charasmatic/penticostal movement for decades.

I do not deny your conviction about your own experience (of course) and I also agree with you in regard to modern day charismatic "flakefests" that this kind of thing might happen but there are just as many genuine cases of people speaking in tongues all over the world and and just as many cases of people not getting bent out of shape because they "didn't get to speak in tongues like Tommy".

Quote:
"Don't you see that this sort of thinking is destructive to the believer? there is nothing edifying about it when others go away feeling cheated, unloved and confused."


Don't you see that your rash generalizations might also be destructive to young believers? Again, I agree that the public exhibitionism of flaky, tongue talkers is as fake as a 3 dollar bill, but there are many, many broken, surrendered believers (even in the west) who have the real thing...so I don't think it is helpful to "tar and feather" those with the genuine gift because of the flakes who have the counterfeit.

If you want to use anecdotal rational to establish a point of view, you will find yourself in an endless debate. My friendly advice is to just be content with your own lot and let others be content with theirs:)

If however you have an agenda, which to be honest, it is sounding like you do have one, then I (and I am sure others) will exit this discussion very quickly and leave you to the arguing. If you want to learn, there are many gracious and Christlike members on this forum (and yes many of them also speak in tongues), who are willing to give up their time to "instruct you more accurately" concerning these matters. The ball is in your court!

 2013/12/2 11:09
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 5185
Louisiana

 Re:

Dear brother Paul,

I appreciate you, Greg, and the other moderators. I believe that you all have done a wonderful job in moderating this website.

You all have a tremendous responsibility, because in being leaders, you are looked up to, and your opinion is highly valued.

I probably agree with you on 95% of what is discussed on these forums. I don't intend on making an issue on the 5% that we disagree on.

In His Love,

Mike


_________________
Mike

 2013/12/2 13:29Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I probably agree with you on 95% of what is discussed on these forums. I don't intend on making an issue on the 5% that we disagree on.


Amen dear brother. 95% is pretty impressive! I can't think of any one person (preacher/teacher of God's Word, no matter how illustrious) with whom I agree with 100%. I don't even agree with myself 100% after a few years, as my understanding of spiritual matters is always being tweaked and rearranged as more light is progressively given.

I want you to know that I love you in the Lord, and always appreciate your contributions. I find them substantially scriptural, inspirational, full of grace and truth.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2013/12/2 16:51Profile





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