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 Did Sual have freewill?

You may have missed the point of my question.

If Saul did not have free will then God could have not repented for Saul actions. If God somehow caused Saul to sin or somehow caused mankind to sin He could never have repented for making mankind.

 2005/7/2 7:29
letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re: Did Sual have freewill?

Saul did have freewill, as do we all. God repented of these things, meaning that He commits to do them no more. God would not annoint Saul to fight Goliath, but rather David.

It is a never ending debate. My opinion is that God does not force anyone to repent that doesn't want His grace, but He foreknows who will repent, and therefore intercedes for His chosen. Why would God chose someone that would refuse His grace?

Saul was chosen of God, but fell because of His pride. God was grieved at this, but used Saul to show us that the outside is not what God is looking at.


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Hal Bachman

 2005/7/5 0:58Profile
HakkaMin
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Joined: 2004/4/12
Posts: 60
Taiwan

 Re: Calvinism - free will

You might find Steve Gregg's teaching series on Calvinism interesting. Go to http://www.thenarrowpath.com/, enter the "Tape Download" section, and find the nine-part series on "God's Sovereignty and Man's Salvation." Very thought-provoking.


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Gregg Dennington

 2005/7/5 2:45Profile









 Re: of God's repentance

Quote:
The key for me to understanding why God repented of something is to understand what "repent" means.

If I repented of beating my wife, the result is, you will not see my doing it anymore. So repentance is not the act of doing something, but being sorry enough, that you don't want to do it again. Just being sorry isn't enough. I can smack my wife every day, and feel sorry each time. That is not repentance. Repentance is seen when I commit to not do it anymore.

Therefore God repenting means He was sorrowful enough not to do the same thing twice...

...So repentance is a necessary committal to not do something that would result in a less godly outcome.

Methinks you are putting a number of additional qualities into 'repentance' which the Lord Himself did not include.

There are two very good reasons for resisting the temptation to do this.

The first is, it may make a repentance which is [u]sufficient for God[/u] [i]unattainable[/i] by some.

The second is, if it is not possible to repent in the terms of your definition, there is no release from the sin. This leaves guilt for the sin itself hanging in the air, additionally burdened by a sense [i]false[/i] guilt for not having been able to repent according to the local proclaimed standard.

I suspect this is not what you have in mind at all. All you're saying is, when you repent from a sin, [i]try[/i] to have a serious intention to not commit that sin again. Definitely! I agree! But the point of repentance, is that it gives us a place of contact with God, [i]WHEN[/i] we [i]do sin[/i], through which we can be cleansed and set back into the righteousness of Christ. This is where we desire to dwell all the time, but, God [i]insists[/i] the remedy be simple, accessible and effective - faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, His Son.

Luke 17:4
And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; [b]thou shalt forgive him[/b].

In hearing what Jesus had to say about repentance, we are also hearing something about God's zeal for forgiveness. HE [i]WILL[/i] forgive. Thank you Lord!

 2005/7/5 8:24
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

I don't know about "free will" but I do know that every person has choices.

A person can either choose Christ or not choose Him.

I believe (as the bible says) that no man can come to Christ without the Father first drawing (or dragging!) him, but once that person has been drawn to Christ he/she still has a choice of whether to crown Him as Lord or to not crown Him as Lord (i.e. to agree that His crucifixion was just).

In some cases in the bible where it says for instance God hardened Pharaoh’s heart (Exodus 7) or when a person has blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, I believe that person still has the same choices as anyone else, it's just that their heart is so turned against God that they will never want to yield to him, and also that the Father will never [again] "draw" them to Christ.


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Mark Nash

 2005/7/5 8:47Profile
letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

dorcas,

Yes. Basically that is what I am saying. Scriptures say to confess and forsake our sins. There are many who think that simply confessing is enough for God. Repent simply put is to "turn." So while you and I may know what you mean when you say "[b]try[/b] to have a serious intention to not commit that sin again," there are many who use "I'm trying" as an excuse.

Too often the layman says they are trying to stop doing evil deeds when in fact they are using our Lord's grace as an excuse to continue in sin, and trampling His blood under foot. They have never turned from sin at all.

I don't mean we should seek to go back in our minds and repent of everything we remember we did as a daily practice. I simply think there are many who think they are saved who are not, simply because they never turned their back on evil (like I thought I was saved for years before I was converted).

Leonard Ravenhill said there was no Scripture that hit him quite the same as Matthew 7's:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I'm just a firm believer that one who never told sin "depart from me," that Christ will tell him, "depart from me." So it's not a daily work that I mean, but a decision we made. Because if sin took our Saviour to the cross, we should want no part of it.


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Hal Bachman

 2005/7/5 13:12Profile









 Re: Calvinism - free will

Hi letsgetbusy,

Quote:
there are many who use "I'm trying" as an excuse...

there are many who think they are saved who are not, simply because they never turned their back on evil...

I'm just a firm believer that one who never told sin "depart from me," that Christ will tell him, "depart from me." So [b]it's not a daily work that I mean, but a decision we made[/b]. Because if sin took our Saviour to the cross, we should want no part of it.

Jesus said: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7)



Points well made.

Charles Wesley used much scripture in his hymns. These helped me understand that help to stop sinning was going to come from God, not solely my effort, although my co-operation with Him would be necessary. This understanding was crucial to my life being turned around (slowly, as it seemed to me) in practice, because I could see the Old Testament promises of God's help to Israel and then in the New Testament, could believe the promises were spiritual fact first, waiting to become my experience.

You're right it's important to preach the whole truth. It is this which provokes both conviction and hope, that repentance and faith will make a palpable difference - which they do.

 2005/7/5 20:23
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

dorcas,

That's right, we can't do these things in the flesh. No man comes to the Son unless the Father draws him.

Charles Wesley is a great example of hymns that include solid Biblical doctrine. You could read some of these old hymns and get saved from the lyrics. Just as the message of "repent" is overlooked in today's average sermon, so it is with the songs of today.

"Come, all ye Magdalens, in lust,
Ye ruffians fell in murders old;
Repent, and live: despair and trust!
Jesus for you to death was sold;
Though hell protest, and earth repine,
He died for crimes like yours—and mine."

-6th verse of Christ the Friend of Sinners, by Charles Wesley


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Hal Bachman

 2005/7/5 22:36Profile
Globachio
Member



Joined: 2005/4/21
Posts: 20
Baltimore

 Re: Calvinism - free will

Having just read "Why I Am Not A Calvinist" (Wall & Dongell) and "Why I Am Not an Arminian" (Peterson & Williams), I find myself thanking God for Calvin.

Arminianism robs God of His sovereignity and gives His glory to man. Not saying they can't be elect and so saved, but the theology is skewed *away* from God and *toward* us.

And this from a Lutheran!!


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Kevin

 2005/7/6 13:56Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Luke 17:4
And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

In hearing what Jesus had to say about repentance, we are also hearing something about God's zeal for forgiveness. HE WILL forgive. Thank you Lord!



Fortunately we have a biblical definition for repentance. Christ said the men of Nineveh repented, “The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.” (Matt. 12:41, KJVS)so all you need to do is read Jonah 3 to discover what Christ meant by repentance. You will discover that it most definitely includes turning away from sin.“For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: [u]yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.[/u] Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.” (Jonah 3:6-10, KJVS)


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Ron Bailey

 2005/7/7 4:03Profile





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