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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is it sinful to baptize babies?

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 Re:

Baptizing babies is wrong Stephen. Anything beyond that is mere sophistry.............bro Frank

 2013/11/16 20:36









 Re:

///This is the scripture that comes to mind when defining what sin is: 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.///

Amen.

If God says "do this" and we don't is that sinful? If we did it ignorantly are we excused?

Frank,if its wrong is it sin? And how are you sure that it is wrong? Where is the Bible text that says so? I wouldn't call that sophistry. We have to be honest, the credobaptist argument is an argument from silence; which, of course, doesn't make it wrong, but we needn't put things quite the way you have.



 2013/11/16 21:50









 Re:

Stephen, how is it possible to prove a negative? If you disagree with Scripture, if you believe that babies can repent of sin and be saved, and have Scripture to back that up then it is you who must show me what leads you to believe such a thing. Otherwise it is, like most Roman Catholic doctrine, extra biblical and falls into the same category as limbo and purgatory.

PS. Arguments from silence does not a doctrine make, just in case you are tempted to do that :) ......bro Frank

 2013/11/16 23:55
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2004


 Re: babies


appolus said, "...if you believe that babies can repent of sin and be saved..."

Can you prove that babies can't be saved?
Can you prove that babies can't have faith?

For he shall be great in the eyes of the Lord, and he shall not drink wine or strong drink. And he will be filled of the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. And it came to pass, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe did leap in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:15,41

And they brought infants to Him also, that He might touch them. But seeing, the disciples rebuked them. Luke 18:15

But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" they were indignant, and they said to him, "Do you hear what these are saying?" And Jesus said to them, "Yes; have you never read, "'Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise'?" Matthew 21:15,16

But you must cling to the things which you have learnt and have been taught to believe, knowing from whom you learned, and that from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures which are able to make you wise to obtain salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 2 Timothy 3:14,15

 2013/11/17 7:42Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Personally - I wouldn’t baptize a child, as I understand what baptism represents.

But if a Father and Mother who don’t understand baptism and they wanted to dedicate there child to God and get it baptized, I wouldn’t judge them or the child as having sinned against God, simply because they don’t know what baptism means.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/11/17 8:33Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
For he shall be great in the eyes of the Lord, and he shall not drink wine or strong drink. And he will be filled of the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. And it came to pass, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe did leap in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:15,41

And they brought infants to Him also, that He might touch them. But seeing, the disciples rebuked them. Luke 18:15

But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" they were indignant, and they said to him, "Do you hear what these are saying?" And Jesus said to them, "Yes; have you never read, "'Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise'?" Matthew 21:15,16


But do any of these indicate "salvific regneration" of the children? One text simply says that Jesus took the children into His arms and "blessed them". We would have to make a strong exegetical case that "blessed them" denotes "saved them from their subsequent sin" which I find impossible to make. One significant hinderance to this is that you cannot read of infants being baptized for the remittance of sin post-calvary (as baptism follows conversion). Babies were dedicated to God in the OT, but even then, their dedications did not presuppose an upright, sanctified lifestyle (ala Nazarite). Take Samson for a good example.

The fact that children can praise God with perfected sounds, bespeaks of an innocency and undiluted devotion on their part - but, again, does this ensure a lifetime of sinless ablution in lieu of repentance? Another far cry, as God can make the rocks cry out "Hosanna" as well.

So, the paedobaptist must show his case from scripture, in full context of the verse, and with exegetical soundness.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2013/11/17 8:34Profile









 Re:

One must ask, "Who are the candidates of baptism"?

Should an infant be baptized with water, or is this a freely chosen act by one who has received understanding (illumination of the Spirit) and made a determined choice to receive Jesus Christ?

Does the Bible teach that there are certain criteria of response that should precede water baptism, and to what extent can another Christian determine the validity of such for other people?

A quick reading of the New Testament indicates that those Christians who were baptized had first evidenced faith and repentance. This would seem to exempt infants who are not capable of responding on their own regarding what God has made available in His Son Jesus Christ. The argument of those who practice "paedo-baptism" that the "baptism of their households" (Acts 16:15; 33) included the children in the home is far from conclusive, because the reference may refer only to the adult members of the household, which could also include extended family members, servants and hired helpers, especially since children were not regarded as viable members of the household in those days.

This is another instance of not regarding the whole counsel of God in a matter, but rather isolating one or two scriptures to create a theological system of belief. When not excluding other truth that Jesus Christ and the Apostles taught, we understand that a person must be cognitively receptive to the Holy Spirit and understand that they are turning away from the world, the flesh and the Devil and turning towards Jesus Christ IN A DETERMINED FAITH (repentance).

Peter was not speaking to infants. Infants would not be able to understand the following:

Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Those who "received the word" of Peter's preaching were baptized (Acts 2:41). Infants did not receive the word of his preaching. Those in Samaria who "believed the good news were baptized" (Acts 8:12). Infants did not believe the "good news". Concerning Cornelius and his family and friends, Peter said that "no one could refuse water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit" (Acts 10:47). Infants did not receive the Holy Spirit. Jesus had previously commissioned Christians to "make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19). You cannot make a disciple of a non-cognitive individual.

Therefore, those who profess repentance from sin and the receptivity of faith in Jesus Christ (John 1:12) are to be regarded as candidates for Christian baptism in water. If someone seeks and receives Christian baptism who has not been spiritually regenerated, then the act of baptism does not express the spiritual reality of regeneration and this will become evident in the "fruit" of their behavior.

But, Christian baptism should not be withheld from those who have exercised a SIMPLE FAITH RESPONSE to Jesus Christ, looking for other "requirements" in their lives.

This is the other side of the coin in Christendom. One extreme is that infants who have not received Jesus Christ in faith are baptized by their parents who think it is some kind of mystical, magical, ceremonial event that will produce the life of the Spirit in that infant (at best) and at the very least, save them from hell if they die as an infant. Of course, this presupposes that they are dying for someone else's sin since they could not have sinned, themselves.

So, the other side of the coin (other extreme) and what has happened down through the centuries is that Christians have instituted comprehensive man-made criteria of "genuine" conversion, "spirituality" and "maturity," which have been imposed upon those who profess faith in Jesus Christ and desire to be baptized.

1. "Disciples" are defined as those who have arrived at a certain behavior, conformity or ecclesiastical practice.

2. Others have demanded "repentance" from all visible uncharacteristic behaviors.

3. Many argue over what it means to "receive the Holy Spirit" and the criteria by which to determine such.

4. And still others have drawn up a litany of items that you must agree with which simply means you understand and believe all the major doctrines of "their church". And that a certain period is necessary for your instruction in those doctrines so that you can articulate them.

It is not man's responsibility to dictate such requirements which then become "works" necessary for baptism.

In short, both extremes are nothing more than WORKS. One extreme is the works of others imposed on you and the other extreme is your own works to the satisfaction of those who are withholding baptism from you as they gauge your performance.

BOTH EXTREMES ARE ABOUT WORKS and have nothing to do with SIMPLE, DETERMINED, UNDERSTANDING of FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.

 2013/11/17 8:36









 Re: Savannah abd Stephen

Romans 10.8-10
But what does it say? "TBE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart,", that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead; you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvstion.

Acts 8:36-38
Ast they went along the road they came to some water; the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?". And Phillip said "if you believe with all your heart you may.". And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.". And he ordered the chariot to stop and they both went down into the water, Phillip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
...............................................................................................
Brothers the above verses establish that baptism is for believers only upon profession of their faith in Jesus Christ. There are other instances throughout Acts where the gospel is preached. People believe and recieve Christ. And they are baptized as believers in Christ. The first century church baptized believers and believers only. No where will you find in the Apostolic record that infants were baptized.

Going back to Mathew 28-18-20 it is those who are becoming disciples of Jesus Christ. Those who are making that choice to follow Christ who are to be baptized. Not babies.

A baby fresh out if its mothers womb does not have the heart capacity to chose to follow or reject Christ.

Savannah the verses you quoted no where substatiates the baptism of infants. You fail to take into context those verses. For example to say that John the batist was filled with the Holy Spirit is a fullfillment of the prophesy the angel gave to Zechariah in Luke 1. This was a special case as John was to be the forrunner to Jesus. You can no more establish faith and repentance from an infant in John's case as you could from say the virgin birth.

You quote the scriptures out of Luke 10:21.about Jesus revealing truth to little infants. This is a figure of speech describing the disciples faith as they were casting out demons and healing people. This is not establishing infants coming to faith and repentence in Christ. And thus being baptized.

I could go on. But infant baptism cannot be established from the scriptures. The early church never practiced it. Nor should the church today practice it.

Bearmaster.

 2013/11/17 8:44
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2004


 Re: "salvific regneration"


Neither "salvific regneration" as Paul West has termed it, nor "baptismal regeneration" as others have termed it,is in view here. Just as a baptist wouldn't equate the two[baptism = salvation]in regard to an adult.

It's not what we do for God but what God does for us.
Whether we are speaking of baptism or salvation.

 2013/11/17 8:49Profile









 Re:

All you have to ask is "What spiritual reality does infant baptism convey?"

Water baptism is not a necessary requirement for infants nor does it convey or actuate regeneration, forgiveness of sins, justification or salvation. It is not the means to salvation or becoming a Christian, and therefore does not determine one's eternal destiny.

The failure or refusal to be baptized in water may prevent you from being a member of some church organizations, but it does not keep one from being a member of the Body of Christ. So if a believer is not baptized in water, he is no less of a Christian and no less "spiritual," for these are determined solely by the indwelling presence of the Spirit of Christ, which is not dependent on water baptism.


Sadly, too much emphasis in Christendom is on the external act of water baptism, and not on the spiritual reality of Christ's indwelling presence received by faith. Scripture is very clear that believing into Christ, receiving His Spirit into our spirit, is the basis of salvation, not water baptism. Paul said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31). "The gospel is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16). "Having believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise" (Eph. 1:13). John noted that "as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12).

 2013/11/17 8:52





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