| Poster | Thread |
Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK
| | Re: | | Here is another unanswerable question - why do some men(or women) choose God, and others, do not?
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Mark Nash
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 2005/3/29 12:20 | Profile |
Angyl
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Joined: 2005/1/26
Posts: 153
| | Re: | | Quote:
why do some men(or women) choose God, and others, do not?
Simply a matter of how much we are in love with our sin, I'd wager. It's the same way with how some people can walk away from TV and elect to NEVER have it in their houses and other people think "[i]No way! You can have my Television when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers![/i]"
It's all a matter of how much you love doing what you want to do. God demands that you put that desire away and start doing what HE wants you to do. In essence, give him complete control of your life and walk away from most of the pleasures of this world for the (hope) of a bigger and better afterlife.
Some don't believe in the afterlife (I believe these people are lying to themselves. Scripture says that all men know--there will be no lawyers arguing ignorance before God come Judgement day)
Some believe, but simply decide I'd rather do my own thing...in fact, they flat out hate God for trying to interfere. |
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| 2005/3/29 12:30 | Profile |
Nasher
Member
Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
Simply a matter of how much we are in love with our sin, I'd wager.
What makes one person more in love with their sin than another?
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Mark Nash
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| 2005/3/29 12:43 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Here is another unanswerable question - why do some men(or women) choose God, and others, do not?
Do we choose God? Or does He choose us?
Krispy |
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| 2005/3/29 13:12 | |
dann
Member
Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada
| | Re: | | Quote:
philologos wrote:
...and foreknowledge is foreknowledge of choice...
I am not sure about this, so charity is in order ;-), but I think you are referring to 1 Peter 1? The place where Peter describes the elect as those who "are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father... to obey Christ"
If I wanted to answer the question - what is the object of the foreknowledge spoken of here - that is, what is it that God foreknew and based his decision upon; the answer, I believe could be found in the balance of scripture - that is, in other texts which speak of God's foreknowledge.
Paul gives us great clarity in the matter when he teaches, "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son"
Here we see that the God's foreknowledge is not a prior knowledge of some choice these people would make - but a prior knowledge of who these people are. God's election therefore was not a foreseen reaction to a choice we have made - rather God chose His 'elect' based solely on His own counsel with respect to the elect person.
Now, if one understands election in this way - we believe that God initiates and we respond - or said another way, we love Him, because he first loved us.
In the light of this understanding, these questions do not appear impossible to answer, but rather appear almost trivial:
Did God create the angels, already programmed to do evil? No. But He sovereingly determined to elect two thirds of all the angels according to His own counsel. Those whom God elected did not rebel against Him, while those whom God did -not- elect did rebel.
Those who rebelled were not programmed to rebel - they had perfect freedom to rebel or not, but chose freely to rebel according to their own desires. Notwithstanding, God knew beforehand that they would do so.
Did God decree that they (fallen angels) would inevitably choose to be evil? God knew beforehand what their choice would be - but God didn't make the choice for them.
Did God allow them to make a choice? I believe so.
I would however, agree with the notion that angelic rebellion is of a different order than human rebellion. Humans rebelled, in part, because of angelic 'tampering.' I would stop short of suggesting that this is why humans are given the opportunity to repent and angels are not - but I would get pretty close to it ;-)
Anyway, I don't want to bump this thread off the rails. I only mention these things because it seemed that you were tying God's foreknowledge to something different than I was - and I felt it might be edifying to offer my understanding.
So far you have struck me as a sound and careful exegete, so I rest assured that you will duly consider whether I am off my rocker or not.
:-)
Dan
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Daniel van de Laar
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| 2005/3/29 13:24 | Profile |
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
What makes one person more in love with their sin than another?
It seems that there is a progression to it. I heard a definition of whoredom once as meaning, "To take the love that belongs to the one and give it to another." We are told, love not the world neither the things of this world.... As I recall that word there is agape. How could a person come to love the world unconditionally? There is a progression here I believe. We are told also not be a 'friend' of the world. The more one is fascinated by the world and the more love they give over to Sin, the stronger the 'bondage' is. To me it is as though the enemy uses a lot of 'smoke and mirrors' to deceive people into believing they will be somehow gratified by the sin. I have some other theories on it also... but...
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Robert Wurtz II
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| 2005/3/29 13:25 | Profile |
RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Do we choose God? Or does He choose us?
Yes.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| 2005/3/29 13:28 | Profile |
dann
Member
Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada
| | Re: | | Quote:
Do we choose God? Or does He choose us?
I forget who it was who first used this example - and I am certain to be doing it more harm than flattery, never the less, I like the description:
The door to heaven is labelled "free choice" as you enter but looking back once inside it reads "Chosen before the foundation of the earth"
Dan
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Daniel van de Laar
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| 2005/3/29 13:34 | Profile |
Angyl
Member
Joined: 2005/1/26
Posts: 153
| | Re: | | Quote:
What makes one person more in love with their sin than another?
I'm going to generalize here, but I'd say their parents and their upbringing has 100% to do with their choice.
If you're taught to love the world rather than the things of God, then you will. If you're taught to be a lover of yourself over a lover of God, then you will.
This teaching comes from parents primarily, friends and associates as we are children on up.
It doesn't have to be a christian-based upbringing either...lots of people never hear a thing about Chrsit and accept Him as adults...it's all in how they were raised and what things they were taught to put trust in. |
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| 2005/3/29 14:17 | Profile |
| | Re: choose God, | | I won't try to answer this, but let me throw a monkey wrench by adding this verse.
Acts2:47
"...........And the LORD added to the Church daily such as should be saved."
Karl |
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| 2005/3/29 17:19 | |
