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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: dilemma and question

Colin: I wanted to reply to your post earlier, but have been very busy and have not had a chance to do so. Having grown up in the shadow of the men and women who knew Parham well, I am very aware of what he taught. In fact, the official doctrinal statement of the Apostolic Faith Bible College in Baxter Springs has remained largely unchanged for many, many years.

Parham was brought up in Methodism. The Methodists taught an experience they called the second blessing. After reading first hand accounts of the Cain Ridge meetings in 1801, I am convinced that they experienced the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but did not necessarily call it this. The early Methodists were a people who believed in and practiced great outward holiness as well.

When Parham experienced the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in 1901, he simply added it on as a third experience. So, the official bylaws of the movement read this.

"It is recognized that the true church of Jesus Christ consists of all believers who believe in the saving grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and have accepted Him as their personal Savior. It is recognized and agreed that no organization or man has been granted authority by the Lord to exclude from or accept anyone into the Kingdom of heaven, as this is done by Jesus Christ only. It is further recognized and agreed that we as Christians are to love all members of the Body of Christ (Christians), and this love and fellowship derives from the unity instilled by the Holy Spirit. Although differences in doctrinal beliefs and interpretation should not influence our love for one another, adherence to similar doctrinal beliefs and modes of worship have bonded together those of the Apostolic Faith Movement as founded by Charles F. Parham in the early 1900's. The scripture teaches us to adhere to the truth and proper doctrine. The common doctrinal beliefs are essentially as follows.

Triune God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Creation and Formation.

Man is basically sinful and in need of salvation.

Salvation by grace upon repentance toward God and acceptance of Jesus Christ as one's personal savior which is the conception of Spiritual Life.

Sanctification of the spirit, soul, and body as a second definite work of grace by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit; evidenced by the speaking in other languages.

Water Baptism......" and the document goes on.

Many of the old publications of the movement can be found at the movement's website under the archives.

The people I grew up around were definitely Pentecostal, and definitely taught holiness. I understand much of where Krautfra is coming from when she posts, as it is very similar to the teaching I grew up under, and follows naturally one of the two sides of the split in Pentecostalism that occurred in the latter days of the Azusa Street work.

The Apostolic Faith Movement generally makes a distinction between Justification by faith and Sanctification. In the first is the forgiveness of past sins. In the second is the work of regeneration by which a person is "born again" and enters a state in which the power of sin over the life of the believer is broken as the sin nature is now dealt with. They teach that the sanctified life is the place from which holiness is derived. They then teach the third experience, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, with tongues as the Biblical first evidence.

The split came when a man named Durham began teaching a doctrine called the "finished work" doctrine that ran afoul of the traditional Apostolic Faith teaching. From Seymour and the people who continued to follow him come many of the Pentecostal Holiness type denominations and what we might call the "old time" pentecostals. From Durham came the Assemblies of God, Church of God, and similar works who did not hold to the three tiered experience.

Hope that history helps. There are still many Pentecostal movements that also hold to holiness teachings (even apart from the UPC which holds to a oneness view of God, but still practices a very strict outward holiness of dress and lifestyle). Holiness accompanying Pentecost is still taught in the Bible College in Baxter Springs. The Superintendent of the school and his wife are very precious people in the Lord. By the way, Parham ministered in Houston, TX and the UPC under Gossman traced their foundations back to Parham's work, even though Parham was decidedly Trinitarian while they became decidedly oneness. I think it is funny that they claim that Parham taught a oneness doctrine, as that was never the case at all.

On a personal note, I think many misunderstand the purpose of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and if you don't know what a tool is to be used for, you will inevitably use that tool incorrectly.

The gifts of the Spirit, tongues included, are not the purpose of the Baptism. They are the manifestations of the Spirit. They are what the Holy Spirit does outwardly through us to minister to others. But that is not the purpose of our being Baptized in the Holy Spirit, but rather the result of our being Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Nor is Holiness the purpose of the Baptism. It is the fruit borne by a Spirit-filled and Spirit-led life. It too is the result of our being filled, not the purpose for which we were filled.

The purpose is that we might be filled with, infused with the Spirit of God so that we might operate in the power of God and fellowship with Him spirit to spirit. And you shall receive power to be witnessed, right? It is the power of God in and through us that causes us to be like Christ in this earth to the point of laying down our own lives so that others might gain life. The manifestations are simply a vehicle that God uses to accomplish this purpose, and holiness is the fruit that we bear as we become more and more like Christ as we find our life in His Spirit and not in ourselves.

Holiness is not a code of conduct or a standard of behavior. It is the fleshly manifestation of obedience to the Holy Spirit (understanding that the author of the Word of God leads us in total agreement with the Word of God and demands that we use the written word as the measure against which all subjective word and impression is gauged.) To attempt to be holy outside of the working of the Holy Spirit is to be attempting to please God by carnal ordinance and is the practice of legalism rather than the manifestation of grace. It is the grace of God that teaches us....

Hope that helps answer the initial question.


_________________
Travis

 2013/11/11 19:43Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote by twayneb: I wanted to reply to your post earlier, but have been very busy and have not had a chance to do so.

Well thanks for delaying your post as it was certainly worth the wait. I can now look further into the life of this Charles Parham, Apostolic Faith Movement and there old publications of the movement. I will also contact the Bible College in Baxter Springs. (I have thought about attending bible school, but will have to find out if that’s God’s will)

Quote by twayneb: The people I grew up around were definitely Pentecostal, and definitely taught holiness. I understand much of where Krautfra is coming from when she posts, as it is very similar to the teaching I grew up under, and follows naturally one of the two sides of the split in Pentecostalism that occurred in the latter days of the Azusa Street work.

It sad really when you think about it, but I guess you got to go with your convictions. Now my next question to you will be if you have been taught holiness doctrine have you experienced the “second work” as they call it. Now let me say this so you don’t misunderstand me I don’t go to church, although I will pop into a occasional meeting here and there (I attended the sermonindex conference in Paisley, Scotland) so I don’t really hold fast to any doctrine, and I am more than willing to accept things, but then on the other hand I am ultra-cautious because of deception in these days. I was filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues before going to the church and after leaving the church God opened up this second work teaching to me. But my heart is changing in this regard as I am tugged to start going back to church.

But it’s good and hearting to find that other men have trodden the path, I am treading. Krautfra please don’t think I am falling away from the faith if I speak in tongues or if I refuse to stop speaking in tongues. As the path to holiness is not hindered by tongues what hinders holiness is pride and the self-life, humility is the blossom of which death to self is the perfect fruit. Likewise for those who oppose or unsure about the second blessing holiness teaching I urge you to seek God on this matter, don’t just write it off as holiness will be one of the characteristics of God’s people in this next move of God, don’t miss it, but here is a key to see if it’s false, does the holiness they promote produce humility in them, if it doesn’t walk away, as humility is the blossom and beauty of holiness.

Quote by twayneb: The purpose is that we might be filled with, infused with the Spirit of God so that we might operate in the power of God and fellowship with Him spirit to spirit. And you shall receive power to be witnessed, right? It is the power of God in and through us that causes us to be like Christ in this earth to the point of laying down our own lives so that others might gain life.
Amen, to be like Christ in this earth, this again points us to humility.

Quote by twayneb: Holiness is not a code of conduct or a standard of behavior. It is the fleshly manifestation of obedience to the Holy Spirit (understanding that the author of the Word of God leads us in total agreement with the Word of God and demands that we use the written word as the measure against which all subjective word and impression is gauged.) To attempt to be holy outside of the working of the Holy Spirit is to be attempting to please God by carnal ordinance and is the practice of legalism rather than the manifestation of grace. It is the grace of God that teaches us....

Again Amen and Amen.. It is the grace of God that teaches us, God goodness (his grace) causes us to be humble.

Thanks Colin


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/11/12 6:29Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re: dilemma and question

Quote:

Here is my dilemma on the day I would say I was saved I was also filled with the Sprit and spoke in tongues and then many years later and seeking of God I find out that sin and self remain within me which requires an additional work to set me free (sanctification)



I agree with your testimony. Baptism of Holy Spirit is to empower us to walk Holy. Gifts are just byproduct of this empowering. It is absolutely wrong to ignore the gifts or embrace them as the main product by ignoring the Holiness. Both the stands are wrong. Gifts are calling of God are irrevocable (Romans 11).

Both Scripturally and practically, Sanctification is not a one time thing and entire sanctification is not possible unless we see Jesus face to face. Sanctification is the process of Holy Spirit enabling us to carry the cross. We need to carry the cross everyday, denying our flesh and obeying the Holy Spirit. Hence we need this empowering everyday. Also we need Holy Spirit to show us the sins that we commit unconsciously. The more we walk with the Spirit the more we come to know our sins and the more we purify ourself the more Holy we become (1 John 3).

I do not agree with those who teach that Baptism of Holy Spirit brings entire sanctification. No it does not. To believe this is unscriptural, all those who believe in this try to separate scriptures that does not suit their belief as not belonging to them. Who gave them this authority to specify whom the scripture is addressed for? Clear sign of unbelief and lack of respect for God's word.


_________________
Sreeram

 2013/11/12 7:03Profile









 Re:

Quote:
twayneb: Holiness is not a code of conduct or a standard of behavior. It is the fleshly manifestation of obedience to the Holy Spirit (understanding that the author of the Word of God leads us in total agreement with the Word of God and demands that we use the written word as the measure against which all subjective word and impression is gauged.) To attempt to be holy outside of the working of the Holy Spirit is to be attempting to please God by carnal ordinance and is the practice of legalism rather than the manifestation of grace. It is the grace of God that teaches us....



Amen!

You know, it does not help us to get into disputes about what stage happens when and what we should call them. The aim of the whole issue, is to be so filled with the Holy Spirit through submission of ourselves or the death of the old man plus the denying of ourselves, and to have the resulting power in ourselves, so that our presence or our words, bring upon hearers, the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and the glory of the risen Christ which strikes at the very centre of a man and reveals his sinfulness to him causes men to fall on their faces in the dust and repentance because it is not about us but about the kingdom.

The trouble today is that there is no man to my knowledge that has this power or anointing on him. I know I do not though I had a taste of it for a while and I barely had to speak when people in my presence were suddenly struck with their sin. Even the brother preaching in Ireland this year - brother Scott from the link I gave Colin, does not have the power even though he knows holiness doctrine and his preaching is powerful. No-one from what I can see was sanctified at the meetings.

This is the tragedy of the church today.

We are awaiting for God to bring many sons to glory and many are hungering for this to occur and myself included.

I have met a brother recently who is involved in the convention in Ireland and we are going to try to meet up sometime to pray together and if any are interested in waiting on the Lord for Him to pour out his blessing again are welcome to get in touch with me.


 2013/11/12 7:06
jochbaptist
Member



Joined: 2010/11/24
Posts: 341


 Re: dilemma and question

Hi Brother

Combining both Pentecostal and Holiness teachings is still not the answer.

I was also rather drawn to the idea of a "second blessing" or "an additional work".

Mainly because of the desire to return to the level of my initial salvation experience. For the first few months of my new Life, I was dead to sin and alive to God to such a degree that it was glorious.

I could not remain in that state and have been searching for the way back, and think that to some degree I have found it.

I have listened to some sermons here on SI by Richard Owen Roberts, for instance -The Source, Appearance and Conduct of Saving Faith. One recurring theme I picked up from him is that it does not matter how you start, but how you finish.

I came to the conclusion that the only way one can finish strong, is to be established and grounded in Grace, and have a biblical grasp of relating to God according to the New Covenant. These two go hand in hand, and I am discovering how little I actually understand and enter into the New Covenant. Mainly because of my western mindset and bad doctrine that came with "Charismania"

Blessings

Joch

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.


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J Kruger

 2013/11/12 7:44Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Colin:

The doctrinal stance of the Apostolic Faith movement came from Parham's perception, which was influenced, as it is with all of us, by his history. I was taught a three tiered experience in which salvation, sanctification, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit were sequential stair steps as a believer climbed in his Christian experience.

When I began to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I was frustrated for several years. I looked at my life, and saw so many shortcomings and failures. I would seek to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and would be confronted with the fact that I was not "sanctified" enough yet. As a result, I never saw myself as worthy of the Holy Spirit indwelling me and using me.

It was not until I came to understand that I did not need to be perfect in order to earn the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but that I needed to Holy Spirit to enable me to live in victory that I was able to receive. And it was glorious, and it has been ever since. Not that I have been perfect or have not made some mistakes, but that I have been walking in fellowship with God through His Holy Spirit ever since.

I agree with something jochbapist said. The key is not in trying to marry Pentecostal and holiness teachings. Honestly, there are some aspects of Apostolic Faith doctrine for which I find little if any, and that very shaky, Biblical support. For example, I do not believe that sanctification is a one-time definite work of grace. However, I do believe that we often come to a point in our lives when we finally decide we are going to give ourselves to God 100%, holding nothing back. We often experience a great increase in the power of God in our lives and see a great change in our carnal lives. But I think this has more to do with our allowing God to lead us as He has been longing to do all along.

Sanctification simply means a separation from the world, the world's philosophies, the world's ways of thinking and doing, etc., and a separation unto God and His leadership and control. It is a decision, but at the same time it is a continual walk. It is initiated, but then it must grow. It does not mean that I am incapable of missing the mark. And, when I do sin, that does not mean that I am somehow "un-sanctified".

As you have received Christ, so walk ye in Him. We received Him by grace and the remainder of our walk will be powered by His grace. I cannot live a holy life without His grace empowering me, so to seek to be holy without a walk of empowerment by the gift of His grace is futile.

The Bible College is a good place. But you will find that no Bible College in the world, just as no church in the world, is a panacea. They have their problems just as any other place does. After all, it is people who lead, teach, and attend. However, it is free to attend, and the teaching is solid.


_________________
Travis

 2013/11/12 8:07Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote by Sree: Both Scripturally and practically, Sanctification is not a onetime thing and entire sanctification is not possible unless we see Jesus face to face.

I agree sanctification begins at conversion, when the Spirit regenerates the heart of the believer.

Quote by Sree: I do not agree with those who teach that Baptism of Holy Spirit brings entire sanctification.

Would it help you if in the future I never mention the word ‘entire’ along with the word sanctification, would that help you to agree with me that we are sanctified by Holy Spirit?

Quote by krautfrau: I have met a brother recently who is involved in the convention in Ireland and we are going to try to meet up sometime to pray together and if any are interested in waiting on the Lord for Him to pour out his blessing again are welcome to get in touch with me.

Is it the Keswick convention? Currently I am in Nigeria for a month, then I will be in Spain for a month and tentatively in Trinidad for a month, after that I will be in the UK for a month that should be Feb 2014 if there is something going on then let me know and I try and get to it, will it be in Ireland or the North of England? Hopefully by the middle of next year I will be in the UK (Scotland) full time.

Quote by jochbaptist: I am discovering how little I actually understand and enter into the New Covenant.

I can say amen to that, thanks for your encouragement in your post.

Quote by twayneb: The doctrinal stance of the Apostolic Faith movement came from Parham's perception, which was influenced, as it is with all of us, by his history. I was taught a three tiered experience.

I wasn’t but that’s the way it seems to working out for me. Although I might have the last two back to front.

Quote by twayneb: I looked at my life, and saw so many shortcomings and failures.

I guess in a roundabout sort of way that’s what I have been doing trying to clean up my life. However in the last few months it’s being dawning on me that all I need is humility, I just need to humble myself before God.

Quote by twayneb: However, I do believe that we often come to a point in our lives when we finally decide we are going to give ourselves to God 100%, holding nothing back.

I know in my heart that’s where I am going, I just know it. So many questions, so many fears just what will he require of me? I guess that’s where the humility will help.

Quote by twayneb: I agree with something jochbapist said. The key is not in trying to marry Pentecostal and holiness teachings.

What I mean by that is simple it’s having a heart purified by faith (Holiness teaching) while operating in the gifts of the Spirit (Pentecostal teaching). That’s all I mean by that.

Quote by twayneb: The Bible College is a good place.

It something that I have thought of doing, but it’s not confirmed, it’s going to take me at the least to the middle of 2014 to get back to the UK permanently, never mind moving to the US for school but it’s something I am considering, maybe they might have a distance learning course.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/11/12 12:42Profile









 God has already given us EVERYTHING we need to live a holy life.

Lets not forget that God has already given us EVERYTHING we need to live a holy life.

2 Peter 1:3, "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"

We live in a constant stream of His Love and Grace.
I have experienced over a million acts of grace.

You can never clean yourself up or even prepare yourself for Gods grace.

True humility is realizing this.

Just look at what God has already done for you and in you and embrace it and then Holy Spirit will show you more daily.

 2013/11/12 13:13
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote by krautfrau: Even the brother preaching in Ireland this year - brother Scott from the link I gave Colin, does not have the power even though he knows holiness doctrine and his preaching is powerful. No-one from what I can see was sanctified at the meetings.

I cant find the link?


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/11/12 20:49Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Is it the Keswick convention? Currently I am in Nigeria for a month, then I will be in Spain for a month and tentatively in Trinidad for a month, after that I will be in the UK for a month that should be Feb 2014 if there is something going on then let me know and I try and get to it, will it be in Ireland or the North of England? Hopefully by the middle of next year I will be in the UK (Scotland) full time.



Quote:
I cant find the link?



The link must have been removed by the administration. It is a church in BALLINAMALLARD in Fermanagh Northern Ireland and the American minister who spoke is a Classic Holiness preacher Dr Noel Scott of the old school and the church is definitely non charismatic. The Keswick convention has not had holiness preachers for a long time. He is preaching the same message that I believe the Lord taught me directly, which I feared had nearly died out since the amalgam of holiness with Pentecostalism that is gaining popularity today which says that baptism of the HOLY Spirit is not entire sanctification.

If that is what you are seeking, perhaps you would be better getting in touch with Patricia Knowles who has written a book called 'Holiness - the key to revival' which you should be able to google. She has a little group of Pentecostalists in the south who are seeking (still).

There is no need to have any fear of what the Lord will require from us once we have entered into His rest. When we take that step in the dark, over the cliff edge as it were, His arms are there to catch us and He gives us such a demonstration of His love that casts out fear. He will never do anything that will cause us to lose our trust in Him afterwards though there are trials still. However, it is different when we have had such a vision of His majesty and glory. The longer we delay however the harder it becomes. He only wants us to come as we are.

On the subject of humility, I have to say that I have found it a problem amongst the people I have spoken to who are apparently seeking in that they without exception, think they know all there is to know about holiness doctrine, yet have not entered into the light whereby God reveals it to us. They feel qualified to argue the toss with someone who has actually entered into the blessing as though intellectual knowledge is everything not understanding that many write or have written about it purely from an intellectual standpoint and have not the experience behind it and these are particularly common these dark days and lack of discernment is on par with not having the blessing.

 2013/11/13 5:28





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