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Discussion Forum : General Topics : When did the church lose it's way? (part 2)

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a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

Oh sorry, I thought you are Scottish [as in "scottishwarriors"] and living in the USA currently

ok my question is this: What is your source for that statement that America is on the verge of a boom.

it sounds so outlandish to me, that I'm not sure we generally talk about the same America.

 2013/11/8 1:18Profile









 Re:

I have a couple of questions in return a-servant. I am wondering if you are harboring animosity towards me for some reason? It's not that it bothers me outwith the fact that it would harm your own walk with the Lord, it's just that it puzzles me. Now take your opening comment " Oh sorry, I thought you are Scottish [as in "scottishwarriors"] and living in the USA currently"

Now I am not sure if you are aware of this, but given what bro Blaine already pointed out, this just comes across as disingenuous, perhaps I am wrong.

To your second question, the source? This is what I discern in my spirit. I have been wrong before and may in fact be wrong in this, but this is my source. I do agree that you and I speak of different America's. My position would be that you are perhaps blind as to its true state colored by national pride, which is very common. This is just an observation, I could of course be wrong.

And so I believe that the enemy has really drawn American Christianity away from God and a dependency upon Him by enriching them. It is probably worth noting that the greatest times of crisis in Israel was when they were materially prosperous, this is when men begin to " need God less." This is what I see , as part of an end time scenario, that men will grow further and further away from God. Prosperity will fuel this and the greater the prosperity the greater the pride and the arrogance and the feelings of self achievment.

Now brother, that was an honest answer to your " questions." .............. bro Frank

 2013/11/8 9:14









 Re:

I don't think what is actually taking place is a "boom" in the economy. It is a perceived one based on the stock market and not on real data. As long as the Fed continues QE (Quantitative Easing - Printing Money) then the perceived boom continues. But 90 million are out of work, and 50 million are on food stamps. The market is kept elevated on very light volume. In other words, it is a house of cards. Remember that Zimbabwe had a stock market that was skyrocketing, too...but later, people were filling up grocery carts with cash just to buy some bread.

Our cash will soon be worth less than the paper it is printed on. I have friends that have cashed out of their IRAs, 401Ks, and taken most of their money out of the Bank (remember Cyprus and Greece) and they don't mind paying the penalty to do so. They feel that 70% of something is better than 100% of nothing. They have put their cash into things that they can touch and feel and trade. Things that have value and probably some silver and gold. I am not saying people should do this, just commenting on what some friends have done. Everyone should be completely convinced in their own mind how to move forward in these precarious financial times.

The boom is based on Fiat Money and major debt. A boom like that can't last too long. So, I don't know about another boom, but I do agree that since David Wilkerson wrote the book, "The Vision" that much of it has come true, not the least of which is that the Church has been given everything it wanted. The clock is ticking and much of what has been given is about to be taken away.

Trying days are coming and are already here in small measure. How will the Church react when everything is taken away? Civil Warfare or Spiritual Warfare?

Will He find faith on earth when He returns?

 2013/11/8 9:22









 Re:

Hi just-in

We may disagree on what is to come or how the end days scenario plays out but let me make this point about " facts and figures," in a politically charged atmosphere where one believes information they receive , not on the validity of the information, but on the desire to believe the information. This was played out in the last election by two very well known political " pundits," who had, ignoring all the polls they did not like, predicted a big win for Mitt Romney. And people believed them, not based on fact, but simply on a desire to believe them. So, a small example of that........

You said that there is 9o million unemployed Americans. I am not sure where you get the number, but here are some facts.

1. Population of America according the Census. 313,914,040

2. Pop under 18- 23.5 %

3. Pop over 65- 13.7 %

4. Combining over 65s and under 18s gives us 116,776,022.4

5. Subtract that from overall pop =197,138,0176.6

6. Now, if you are correct about 90 million being unemployed, then that would put the rate of unemployment at just under 50%.

7. The highest rate of unemployment during the great depression where we saw mass poverty, people living in tin shacks and lining up for soup was 24.9% in 1933.

Now obviously my numbers did not include the mentally handicapped or genuinely disabled which would have pushed your unemployment rate to closer to 60%. But please, don't let these numbers get in the way of anyone's narrative :)..........bro Frank

 2013/11/8 9:58









 Re:

Hi Frank,

Here is where I got it and it is reported in many other sources, too.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303902404579151843080376798


I am not trying to create a narrative and agree that much of what we here or read is really someone else's script, so we must beware.

As Neil says, much of what is out there is "smoke and mirrors", to deceive everyone (in the "Purge Surge" thread). By the way Neil, thanks for your links and I will look at them later.

Much peace in Christ to both of you brothers.


Remember: All "Conspiracy Theories" are theories until proven fact. But when proven fact, you have to admit, they were pretty accurate theories.

 2013/11/8 10:33
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 703
San Diego

 Re: The boom thing

Boom is just a word. It can be used for a rapid economic increase, or for a really bad day at Hiroshima.

So, there could be a boom in America's future, and I would certainly prefer the first one.

Unfortunately, America no longer has a passion for truth and hard work. How are you going to get prosperity out of that? Prosperity is like a stool with three main legs- freedom and opportunity, energy, and morality. When a society holds these all in contempt, I have no idea where they think prosperity is going to come from. As just-in has noted, we're propping up the illusion with a free flow of un-backed fiat money. Any farmer will tell you that you can only get milk from a cow for a short time if you don't feed it.

When not playing here at the forum, I am a businessman. You would not believe how much dodging and weaving I have to do to stay profitable in a political environment that wants nothing more than to shut me down. And they are good at it, I watch businesses fold all the time as the regulations, paperwork demands, taxes and fees added to labor costs exceed the production capabilities of the workers. If a worker can produce $100 of value but it costs the company $120 to keep him employed, do the math.


There are certain inevitabilities. Since capitalism is a coward, it will flee to somewhere that allows it to flourish. That's why business is fleeing California and East Coast states, and other "blue" states and heading for red states. But there is also the undergrounding and all cash businesses that begin to grow themselves under the regulatory radar. They become dishonest just to survive, and by avoiding the taxman, shift the tax burden to those who operate within the law.

This makes the "boom" dark, as morality leaves the stool and the prosperity is stained with a culture of immorality. Guess where the money is now in California- the casinos! Yeah, that'll work!

Spiritual revival remains the only hope for this or any nation. We are so running out of time!


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2013/11/8 11:53Profile









 Re:

I guess you know I had to smile when I saw it was the WSJ, no bias there :)

But to a serious point just-in and in ties into the OP, you talked about some friends and so on taking out there money or maybe buying gold and so on because they fear an economic collapse of some kind. So, I was talking to a good brother last evening, he and his wife were missionaries in Belize, they are now back in Missouri. He was telling me that I would not believe the number of American Christians that have and are moving to Belize. It seems that these Christians are fearful of the collapse and how that would effect their life-styles so they have set up shop in Belize in order to protect their life-styles from an impending financial disaster.

Now it seems to me that this fear abounds, the fear of a financial collapse and what it would do to those with much to lose. ( because lets face it, if you have $10 in the banks, your not gonna lose a lot of sleep on that particular issue, especially if the unemployment rate is already 60% as your article claimed:)

So it seems that those with much to lose are the most partisan and fearful people. Yet we have not been called to be fearful or discontent, quite the opposite.

1. God is not finished with the folks of this nation, a financial collapse of tremendous proportions occurs and many cry out to God in their desperation. Praise the Lord then for whatever brings people to their senses and more especially , to their knees.

or.....

2. The folks of this nation are under judgement and will be allowed to continue to wallow in their prosperity taking them ever further from the living God.

Either scenario is viable, we shall see in due course........bro Frank

 2013/11/8 12:05
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Appolus wrote:1. God is not finished with the folks of this nation, a financial collapse of tremendous proportions occurs and many cry out to God in their desperation. Praise the Lord then for whatever brings people to their senses and more especially , to their knees.

__________________

something that I have noticed and found interesting since living here on the east coast where there are so many more people, is that when difficult times hit and things get bad people don't seem to turn toward GOD like I would have thought they would. I was shocked and really surprised at how many turned to the government for hand outs and help. Its almost as if there are those who would rather do anything else then turn to the LORD. I don't know if its pride, or bitterness or what but its like no matter what they go through they will not turn to the LORD. I don't know if something happened on a larger scale across the entire country how people would react, I almost wonder if some are so deceived that it doesn't matter what happens they just refuse to see???

God bless
mj

 2013/11/8 12:37Profile









 Re:

Hi MJ

I actually think that scenario number two is more likely. I think many Christians believe that if there was such a collapse that it may bring many to their knees. It is hard to imagine that in a country that is and has been so awash with the Gospel that a rejection of it is just that, or that there is will-full ignorance involved.

If there is to be a great falling away, and I believe there is and that it is well under way, prosperity suits that better. So many times in history men have forgotten about God in the abundance of their material possessions. They begin to believe that they are self made men and that by their own bootstraps they have arrived where they are. Pride and arrogance is fueled and then contempt rises for those they consider to be less than them, perhaps calling them takers believing themselves to be the makers, thus elevating themselves above men in their own estimations. This runs counter to the notion that everything that we have comes from the gracious hand of God, and if that were truly believed it should lead men to humility, not pride nor arrogance..........bro Frank

 2013/11/8 13:37
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

Quote appolus: "I am wondering if you are harboring animosity towards me for some reason?"

Don't be offended, why would I do that, you are reading too much into it.

Quote appolus: "My position would be that you are perhaps blind as to its true state colored by national pride, which is very common. This is just an observation, I could of course be wrong."

And you have no idea just how wrong you are with that. Don't be offended, I understand your position that material prosperity suits America, and therefore "that's what she is going to get". Where we differ on is, that this is going to change pretty soon, and we both can continue that discussion when it happens. I noted the 3 days in June, or was it August where they tested the crash by simply announcing that QE 3 would be limited. Billions in assets were lost in these 3 days with increasing negative velocity by the hour, until Bernanke said that he changed his mind and will continue to 'print money indefinitely' in order to stimulate the markets and buy his own bonds. His announcement stopped what would have been otherwise "2008 - part 2" within another day or two.

However, a few people in higher ranks than him published articles about the "unsustainablity of that increasing QE dept cycle" - in publications where program changes are announced ahead of time of their implentation. These are not comments people write, these are directives. So it's not guess work or speculation that the end of "quantitative easing" is already a decision that has been made. With perhaps a delay of a year or two for the markets, who can tell for sure, unless involved in directing that script.


Quote just-in: "The boom is based on Fiat Money and major debt. A boom like that can't last too long."

That's pretty obvious to everyone I know, except one friend that is so intensely involved with creating wealth for himself that he refuses to look at the fundamental market facts. His oppinion is to 'ride the wave as long as it lasts'. Well, if you net 50k a month, what else can you go by? This of course limits the scope to let any facts that suggest otherwise bother you. As much as I like him as a friend, it's really disturbing how much faith he puts into this 'playing the casino' mentality and calling it 'strict business discipline'.






 2013/11/8 22:48Profile





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