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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What united Whitfield and Wesley: the forgotten commandment

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Brothers you quote Galatians 3:24 which states that the law became out tutor or school master to lead us to Chtist. And that so we may be justified by faith. But you have to kook at the verse that follows in which Paul writes that now that faith has come we are no longer under s tutor. In other words we are not under law. Indeed Paul states in Gal. 3:12 that the law is not of faith. He also says that whoever practices the commands of the law will live by them. And as such under a curse.

Then how is the New Covenant believer governed in ethical conduct that God requires? The answer is found in Gal.5:16. Walking by the Spirit. For if we walk by the Spirit we will not carry out the desires of the flesh. Thus our obedience to Christ is an internal working of the Spirit that give rise to His fruit. That being love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against these internal virtues of the heart Paul says there is no law as stated in Gal. 5:23. Paul also reminds us in Gal.5:18 that if we are led by the Spirit we are not under the law. This the believer is governed by the inward working of the Holy Spirit and not by observing an external law.

Paul admonishes the Galatians in 4:10 that they are observing days and months and seasons and years. He fears he has run his gospel race in vain.

I dare say one will be hard pressed to find in the New Covenant writings that which we call the New Testament a binding sabboth command.

It has been said take a young believer who has been converted out of paganism. Give him a New Testament. Put him or her on an island for a year or so. They will not come to the conclusions that are embraced in this forum. That new believerwill believe God's gifts are for today. That new believer will not embrace tithing. And for sure that new believer will see our Sabbath rest is in Jesus and not a day.

Bearmaster.


 2013/11/6 9:52
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

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 Re:

Hi Stephen,

Thank you for your response and description of 'your' Sabbath. We view the day a bit differently to you, but also see that there is much to be gained in keeping a particular day for fellowship and rest. May the Lord bless you and your family as you seek to honour and worship Him with your lives.

One principle I think we should keep in mind is Jesus' interpretation of the 'Sabbath being made for man and not man for the Sabbath'. It was God's gift to us and not meant to make us slaves to it. So the Pharisees 'worked hard' at keeping it, but Jesus let his disciples relax and enjoy being in His presence.


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Dave

 2013/11/6 9:53Profile









 Re:

Thanks Heydave! I am grateful for the grace that is evident in the conversation on this thread.

I love the principle you mentioned, ///One principle I think we should keep in mind is Jesus' interpretation of the 'Sabbath being made for man and not man for the Sabbath'./// The Sabbath like the other commandments is a gift. Just think how you would respond if someone invited you to live out your freedom in Christ by straying from the first commandment and enjoying some other gods. You would respond with every bit of feeling you could muster "NEVER!" Freedom in Christ is a wonderful thing when that freedom is freedom from sin and Satan.

///Paul also reminds us in Gal.5:18 that if we are led by the Spirit we are not under the law. This the believer is governed by the inward working of the Holy Spirit and not by observing an external law.///

Bearmaster the testimony of Scripture is that the Holy Spirit internally moves us to obey and delight in an external law. Everyone here at sermonindex would agree that there is an objective standard that is right and wrong and whether people know it or not is beside the point. So, there is nothing wrong with an external code. The homosexual ought not to practice homosexuality. The pedophile ought not to hurt children. The liar ought not to lie. But only the inward working of the Holy Spirit can make a homosexual not a homosexual and a pedophile not a pedophile and a liar not a liar - but you notice nothing happened to the external code!! What happened happened to the individual.

What I am noticing in discussions here is that people are saying there is something wrong with the external code. The Bible says, rather, the problem is in our hearts - and this is where God makes His people stand out as salt and light, by so changing them that their attitude to that external code becomes different. They respond to the "oughts" with "I want" - but please again remember the "oughts" haven't vanished. God hasn't changed, it is we who have changed.

Bearmaster, people are saying there is no binding command in the NT against homosexuality. Most pastors I know respond by pointing to the OT to support the few hints they find in the New. Those who advocate on behalf of 'gay Christians' respond by saying what many in the Church are saying about the Sabbath - that it is part of a ceremonial law that has been abrogated.

The irony of Galatians 4.10 is that we do honour days in the Church today: Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving... and these are the kinds of days Paul was referring to: that whole system of feasts and weeks are all gone because part of a ceremonial system - but the Sabbath was set apart before the fall and is part of the 10 commandments and continued to be observed and followed by our Lord and His apostles.

Even the name given to Sunday speaks volumes. Like the Lord's Supper which is a meal set apart from common use, so the Lord's Day is a day set apart from commmon use.

 2013/11/6 10:19
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

by Stephen2 on 2013/11/6 6:34:00

Hi MaryJane, thanks for your reply. I just want to say that I share with you 100% what you said: ///and for me living unto HIM every moment of every day is what it is all about not one day a week.JESUS is my all, HE deserves my attention in all things.///

So it should be for every Christian... and so it was in the OT when the people were commanded to love God with whole heart soul and mind. Nonetheless, God in His wisdom and His grace gave them a special day where they could specially focus on Him. MaryJane, the more that we feel that way about Him the more we are going to cherish a day in which we have nothing else but Him! The more I enjoy my wife every day the more I look forward to special days where we can enjoy one on one time free of distractions. Of course, you and I are talking about preferences, but it does come down to the question of whether or not God's commandments are still applicable to us

_____________________________

Thank you for your response. Jesus is my Sabbath and God does desire time with me.

The two quotes below speak to my heart on this topic:

God deeply desires that we bury ourselves in Him, and not in our work and our duties and distractions and noises! (For me Sunday service was most of the time noise, distraction and duties not quiet one on one time with JESUS. There was never any rest, but there was much distraction.)

Take the time to separate yourself in the blood and spirit of Jesus, apart from the sensory overload, the world and your flesh and your “responsibilities” and your television and computer and sports may want to feed you! There is a Sabbath Rest for the People of God, in Christ. (For me I have learned that time with HIM can and often does happen daily. every moment I spend with the LORD is special and precious to me. I love the times when a few saints are gathered together in HIM praying and seeking to further HIS KINGDOM as well as times spent alone singing and praises HIM. I do believe GOD commands us to spend time with HIM, God does that I spend time with HIM, it just doesn't have to be on a Sunday)

Brother I suspect there are some other points we might not agree upon but I believe GOD is working in both our lives and HE will reveal HIMSELF in HIS timing to lead us according to HIS good and perfect will. I realize some of our differences will keep us from having fellowship together on this topic but it does not lessen my love for you.

Thank you for your kind responses and sharing your heart here with me.

God bless
maryjane

 2013/11/6 10:33Profile









 Re: Steohen

Brother my understanding is the Jews never made the distinction in the Mosaic Law between moral civil, and ceremonial. To them the law was the law. It was a whole, not 3 parts. It was theologians who came and divided the law into the components of civil, ceremonial, and moral.

The Holy Spirit dqoes not move one to observe an external code as more He has already written His law on our hearts and minds. The writer of Hebrews conveys this in Heb.8:10 and Heb.10:16.

What laws has the Spirit written in our hearts and minds. I believe those Jesus stated in Mat 22:37-40. Those two commands of love of God and love of neighbor. Paul reaffirms this in Rom. 13:9 when he writes if there is any other commandment it is summed up in the statement "You shall live your neighbor as yourself". One under the New Covenant does not need to be instructed by an external code as the Spirit had already written His law of love if God and love of neighbor into our hearts.

Again brother Paul writes in Rom.7:6 that we serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. And again Paul writes in 2 Cor.3:3 & 6 that God has written His law on our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Namely love of God and neighbor.

Brother if you are reasoning that one should have time to rest and reflect upon God then I would agree. As I stated in my earlier post this is good Christ centered wisdom. But that is something the Spirit can work out in the believer. The New Testament does not bind the believer to a Sabbath day. But the believer under the New Covenant is bound to Jesus who us our Sabbath rest.

Bearmaster.

 2013/11/6 11:10
sermonindex
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Posts: 36679
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Quote:
What I am noticing in discussions here is that people are saying there is something wrong with the external code. The Bible says, rather, the problem is in our hearts - and this is where God makes His people stand out as salt and light, by so changing them that their attitude to that external code becomes different. They respond to the "oughts" with "I want" - but please again remember the "oughts" haven't vanished. God hasn't changed, it is we who have changed.

Bearmaster, people are saying there is no binding command in the NT against homosexuality. Most pastors I know respond by pointing to the OT to support the few hints they find in the New. Those who advocate on behalf of 'gay Christians' respond by saying what many in the Church are saying about the Sabbath - that it is part of a ceremonial law that has been abrogated.



It is simply clear in the New Testament that there is not a binding day that Christians have to rest and not work. We are to treat everyday as towards the Lord and it is wise to spend a day or longer apart for the Lord Himself to seek Him and spend time in His word. But everyday is holy in Jesus Christ, He has our all, we are not to give 10% he has our 100%.

Seventh Day Aventism is a new Christian sect that started around the same time as over 50-100 other groups such as Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Christian Scientists and others to name a few. They hold that if one does not keep the Saturday Sabbath that they are in a sense taking the mark of the best. Such is not the Gospel and they are preaching a false gospel of the three angels and not the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ that was commanded to be preached in the Gospel accounts.

You can read more on this sect here: http://carm.org/seventh-day-adventism

Aberrant Teachings

Our sins will ultimately be placed on Satan.1
Jesus is Michael the Archangel.
Worship must be done on Saturday (the Sabbath).
On October 22, 1844 Jesus entered the second and last phase of his atoning work.
Investigative Judgment - the fate of all people will be decided based upon this event in the future.
The dead do not exist anymore -- soul sleep.
The wicked are annihilated.
Ellen G. White, the "founder" of Seventh Day Adventism, was a messenger from God gifted with the spirit of prophecy.
There is a sanctuary in heaven where Jesus carries out his mediatorial work.

Another resource to learn more:
http://leavingsda.com


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2013/11/6 11:16Profile









 Re:

Hi Greg, the Seventh Day Adventists are a sect, and their view is not one I hold. The position I hold is one that was shared by Leonard Ravenhill, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Charles Spurgeon, J.C. Ryle, the Bonar brothers, Robert Murray M'Cheyne, John Newton, Whitefield, Wesley, etc.

I believe as our forefathers taught that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath, and I do wholeheartedly reject the aberrant teachings (of the Seventh Day Adventists) which you listed.

Of course, you are right that we are to give our Lord 100% rather than 10%. In the Old Testament that was put this way, "And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." I am not contending for 10%. Rather, I believe that while we are to love the Lord with all our heart soul and mind every day all the day (!) God still gave the Sabbath commandment, so He must have known something about us that we don't.

When I held the view you hold the reality was that while I attempted to worship Him every day, by failing to set apart any day as particularly His, all my days were alike. All were marked by worship, play and work. Anyone taught to observe the Sabbath will tell you that six days a week they also give to worship, play and work. On this score they are exactly like their anti-Sabbatarian counterparts. Sundays, however, are unique because even as they continue to worship, work and play are set aside so that worship can be given the special attention it deserves.

You said, ///It is simply clear in the New Testament that there is not a binding day that Christians have to rest and not work.///

Brother, it is not so clear. It wasn't so clear to our forefathers, and I would love for the opportunity to explain why.

Briefly, the texts which seem (to some) to reject the Sabbath command tell us that these days (of which they speak) are shadows. A shadow is something which points to work of Jesus Christ... that is its sole (!) function, so that when Christ (the substance) has come there is no need for them - and this is exactly the purpose of the feast days and Sabbath weeks and extra days in the Old Testament (see Colossians 2). They pointed to the work of Christ.

The Sabbath, however,was set apart before the fall, when there was no need of such shadows. It was, like marriage, a creation ordinance. This is the reasoning of our forefathers and most of the men from previous generations who's sermons are posted on this website.

Edited: I did want to thank you MaryJane for your reply and your kindness. Bearmaster, I will get back to what you wrote shortly.

 2013/11/6 11:31









 Re:

Stephen2:

Thank you for your post.

What is the name of the sermon that you posted by Leonard Ravenhill?

The link you posted on the transcript did not open. Please find the links you posted below:

(ed. and Leonard Ravenhill - http://media.sermonindex.net/4/SID4361.mp3 or here for some of the transcript: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=48290&forum=34) said about the Christian Sabbath.

Thanks, KM

 2013/11/6 13:17









 Re:

Hi soldout2him, I don't know why the link is not working. However, if you will do a Google search for "Leonard Ravenhill Sabbath" you will find the first two items to come up are links to the sermon both here and at sermon audio and those links do work.

Here is the quote from Leonard Ravenhill's sermon as quoted by turn,

///Some notes starting at 49:30 into the message

The greatest thing in the world is to hear the voice of God as far as I am concerned. My heart dances with joy when I hear His voice. I would rather hear God's voice in rebuke than anybody else's voice in flattery. If he rebukes me, He loves me. If I'm coasting on and it's all so easy, forget it. We should be able to kiss the rod. His correction is to move us to perfection...perfect in love...perfect in obedience...perfect in doing His will.

You take on the atmosphere in which you are born. If you get born in a worldly church, you will be worldly all your life til the Holy Ghost gets a hold of you.

Isn't it something now? We have a sanctified bowling alley next to the church. They opened a bowling alley and asked somebody to pray over it. I think they got mixed up. You know they read about Peter. It said he was bold. They got it all mixed up. All those things are going to dry up before long. There's going to be a sudden surge into maturity. When I became a man…. You remember the day when you gave up every blessed thing that was a hindrance to you. (Now) you won't give it up. Don't pray about it. You don't need to pray about it. All you have to do is to be obedient.

You don't need to ask God if you need to keep the Ten Commandments. You better keep them or you will be in trouble. I chased some of you who don't keep the Sabbath.

Don't you pray for a loved or someone else when you are fooling around on Sundays and won't keep the sabbath. Some of you go to movies on Sunday night.

You, keep the sabbath day holy. Some of you who used to come here a lot said: "I don't think I need to keep the Sabbath Days. It's Old Testament." Your neighbor thinks they don't have to keep the other Ten Commandments like "Thou shalt not commit adultery". You break one commandment. He breaks the other. If you break one, you are guilty of all.

God hangs revival on the keeping of the sabbath. Read Isaiah 58.

"Take your foot from my sabbath". That's when football is you see.

"Take your foot from doing your pleasure on my holy day".

The sabbath (not half of it) is God's tithe on your time. It's His for twenty-four hours. It's not giving God the Sunday morning service and next a buck in the offering and then dashing off to Campden Fair amongst all the junk.

Now, I talk straight...

The Christian life will only work one way and that is God's way.

God is not committed to bless anything you do that's outside of His Word and His Will. Whether you like it or not isn't the point.

He has said it: If you love Him, you will keep His commandments. I believe that means the Decalogue or the Ten Commandments as well as the new commandment that we should love one another. There's a needy world outside.///

Leonard Ravenhill was not infallible but I found it fascinating that he said "God hangs revival on the keeping of the sabbath. Read Isaiah 58." !!

 2013/11/6 13:47
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1624


 Re:

Quote:
When I held the view you hold the reality was that while I attempted to worship Him every day, by failing to set apart any day as particularly His, all my days were alike. All were marked by worship, play and work. Anyone taught to observe the Sabbath will tell you that six days a week they also give to worship, play and work. On this score they are exactly like their anti-Sabbatarian counterparts. Sundays, however, are unique because even as they continue to worship, work and play are set aside so that worship can be given the special attention it deserves.



I normally do not get involved in such discussion, but I find that you really have a good way to place your argument. I find logic in the way you successfully answered the weak argument placed by few here. So I believe you will not end up fighting in a nasty way!!!

I agree in OC( old covenant) as well men worshiped and prayed rest of the days as well. But the worship in OC is external. Jesus said that there comes the time when believers will worship in spirit and truth(John 4). We live in that time. Their worship and singing were all external worship. Hence they needed a day to sit and read the commandments that were only written on external things like stones and papers. The spirit was never given to a level of dwelling inside them. But now we can have spiritual worship even when we are at work(Romans 12:1). There no need for me to go to temple or even church for worship. I can do it all the time. Everyday I have the door open for me to enter into rest with God (Hebrews 6). There is no need to wait for a particular day to sit and read the externally written commands because the commands are internal written in my heart(Hebrews 8). Still I go to church on Sundays so that I can be an encouragement and also get encouraged by hearing God's word spoken through prophets and teachers. In short the rest of sabbath is not physical rest but a fellowship.

We have eternal life which is to know (fellowship with) God (John 17). The word know is same as the one used in Adam knew eve. So that kind of intimate fellowship we have with God on this earth. Hence there is no point in resting from physical work and seeking fellowship on day alone when we have eternal life every day till eternity.


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Sreeram

 2013/11/6 13:55Profile





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