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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What united Whitfield and Wesley: the forgotten commandment

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 Re: An Observation

For those who argue that Sunday is to be a day of rest. A Sabbath. They are often the most exhausted by the end if the day.

Here is how a typical Sunday or Sabbath may go. Get up. Get some time with the Lord. Get breakfast. Get family dressed. Off to church. Run to Sunday school. Get kids to nursery. Run to church service. Out the door. Eat lunch. Maybe grab a 30 minute nap. Have some quick time with family. Then back to church for evening service. Take care of s few things in evening. Then collapse in bed. Is this s Sabbath rest.

Monday morning at work is almost quite relaxing compared to Sunday.

Bearmaster.

 2013/11/5 15:46
Heydave
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 Re:

Stephen,

May be you can tell us how you use your day of rest.

edit: What does your typical Sunday look like?


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Dave

 2013/11/5 16:58Profile
a-servant
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 Re:

What most people trained themselves to overlook in Acts 15 is:

Acts 15:19  Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

The basis of "that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:"

is this: "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."

Teaching of the law was so common in every city, that nothing had to be added as a schoolmaster to come to Christ.

Once you take that schoolmaster out, and replace it with benefit driven messages like "God wants you to be happy in this life and the next" - you just left God's preordained way to convert anyone, as almost nobody is convicted of their sin.

What do you get without conviction of sin and repentance? You get American theology that sounds just like that:

“I fully adhere to the fundamental tenets of Christian faith for myself and my ministry. But, as an American, I respect other paths to God–and, as a Christian, I am called on to love them”

"But, as an American, I respect other paths to God"

So one side of him is a Christian, the other side is American. Both have their own paths to God. It sounds like the peace and unity one can achieve within one personality once the opposing powers of yin and yang are contolled by a higher principle of tolerance. Respect, tolerance and love. It's only 'Truth' that is missing.

“I used to believe that pagans in far-off countries were lost–were going to hell–if they did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them. I no longer believe that. I believe that there are other ways of recognizing the existence of God–through nature, for instance–and plenty of other opportunities, therefore, of saying ‘yes’ to God”

Billy Graham’s Strange Fire
http://www.scionofzion.com/bgsf.htm

 2013/11/5 21:00Profile
savannah
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 Re: What united Whitfield and Wesley: the forgotten commandment



They who are disposed to glory in the flesh, they urge you to become circumcised, only that they may not be persecuted on account of the cross of the Messiah.
For not even they themselves, who are circumcised, keep the law: but they wish you to become circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
But as for me, let me not glory, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus the Messiah; by whom the world is crucified to me, and I am crucified to the world.
For circumcision is nothing; neither is uncircumcision; but a new creation.
And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace and mercy be on them and on the Israel of God.
Henceforth let no one put trouble upon me; for I bear in my body the marks of our Lord Jesus the Messiah.
My brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus the Messiah, be with your spirit. Amen. Galatians 6:12-18

For he is not a Jew who is so outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in flesh; but a Jew is he who is so inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, of which the praise is not of men, but of God. Romans 2:28,29

For we, the ones believing, enter into the rest, even as He said, "As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter into My rest," though the works had come into being from the foundation of the world. Hebrews 4:3

Our rest[Sabbath]is not to be found in a day but rather in a Person[Messiah Jesus].

For He is our peace, He making us both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, in His flesh causing to cease the enmity, the Law of the commandments in decrees, that He might in Himself create the two into one new man, making peace, and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, slaying the enmity in Himself.
And coming, He proclaimed "peace to you, the ones afar off, and to the ones near."
For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
So, then, you are no longer strangers and tenants, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and of the family of God,
being built up on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the cornerstone,
in whom all the building being fitted together grows into a holy temple in the Lord,
in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:14-22

For ye are all the children of God, by faith in Jesus the Messiah. For they who have been baptized into the Messiah, have put on the Messiah.
There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is no slave nor freeman, there is no male and female;for ye are all one in Jesus the Messiah.
And if ye are the Messiah's, then are ye the seed of Abraham, and heirs by the promise. Galatians 3:26-29

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation; and as many as by this rule do walk,peace upon them, and mercy, and on the Israel of God! Galatians 6:15,16

And therefore, we know no person after the flesh: and if we have known the Messiah after the flesh, yet henceforth we know him no more. Whoever therefore is in the Messiah, is a new creation: old things have passed away and all things are made new. 2 Corinthians 5:16,17

Know ye, therefore, that those who are of faith, they are the children of Abraham.
Now the Scripture having foreseen that God justifies the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel before to Abraham: "All the nations will be blessed" "in you."
So that those of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
For they who are of the deeds of the law, are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who shall not do every thing written in this law.
And that no one becometh just before God, by the law, is manifest: because it is written, The just by faith, shall live.
Now the law is not of faith; but, whoever shall do the things written in it, shall live by them.
But the Messiah hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, and hath been a curse for us; (for it is written, Cursed is everyone that is hanged on a tree) that the blessing of Abraham might be on the Gentiles, through Jesus the Messiah; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit by faith. Galatians 3:7-14

And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace and mercy be on them and on the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16

The 'Israel of God' are those forming the true messianic community.

 2013/11/6 2:50Profile
Heydave
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 Re:

a-servant. Thanks for highlighting that verse from Acts 15. It is an important point and I had not considered it before.

I agree with what you have said in regard to the law being a school master to lead us to Christ, so we have a correct conviction of sin and need for repentance. You did not comment though on the aspect of this verse if it is saying that the law (and in particular the Sabbath) is still a requirement for gentiles. What are your thoughts on this?

Stephen - As you stated that the Sunday Sabbath is something we should be keeping, I think it only right that you tell us how exactly you keep this day in a practical outworking, so we can see what you mean.


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Dave

 2013/11/6 6:01Profile









 Re: Sone

 2013/11/6 6:32









 Re: A Change in Law, A change in Covenants.

Hebrews 7:12
For when the priesthood is changed of necessity there takes place a change in law also.

Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been built on better promises.

Hebrews 8:13
When He says "A New Covenant", He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
.........................................................
Brothers, respectfully, I must challenge your notions that the New Testament teaches a Sabbath obligation to believers. For you to insist such is putting New Testament believers under a yoke which according to Peter neither our father's nor we have been able to bear (Acts 15:10).

As New Covenant believers we are not under a command to keep Saturday or Sunday as a day unto the Lord. If anything all days are alike as unto Christ ad Paul writes in Romans 15:5. And because we live in the reality and substance of Christ no one is to be our judge over feast days and sabboths as Paul writes in Col. 2:16-17. For he states that these are a shadow of Him who is to come. That being Jesus.

Brothers, Hebrews 4, the whole chapter, teaches that Jesus Christ is our Sabbath rest in the New Covenant, not a day. As such New Covenant believers are bound to the Sabbath Rest of Jesus Himself. Not to observe a day.

Bear.






 2013/11/6 7:12
a-servant
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 Re:

Heydave, when you consider the original intention of Acts 15 for a while, you can arrive at the reason why we are in the situation we are today.

Almost nobody is teaching the 10 commandments anymore, they start straight with the NT and the main components of grace, love and forgiveness of sin. While nobody really is able to see the problem with their own sins, without the teaching of God's standard, and happily accepts to just put grace "on top of it all" - In the expectation the resulting condition will be Biblical Christianity. And it rarely is.

Are the 10 commandments "requirement" for gentiles? Once you are part of the family of God, there are no more gentiles. We are part of God's economy and join his plan, Jesus does not join the American or British church.

What laws are written on our hearts as part of the New Covenant? Ever thought about that, personally I agree with James and call it the royal law, and I define love according to the scriptures: 1 John 5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Apart from that I don't think of them as "requirement*" - because you cannot require love. If they are not written on your heart, you cannot keep them, nor would you want to, in that case they would be your school master to show you that something might be missing in your relationship.
* "requirement" - what does not mean God does not think of them as requirements, His standards are higher than mine.

Should you however refuse to acknowledge the right of the school master to teach you God's eternal standard, your walk with the Lord will suffer in one way or another as a result. That's proven over and over again to everyone that really pays attention. Even over such "small things" as the 4th commandment, see: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19




 2013/11/6 8:47Profile









 Re:

Hi MaryJane, thanks for your reply. I just want to say that I share with you 100% what you said: ///and for me living unto HIM every moment of every day is what it is all about not one day a week.JESUS is my all, HE deserves my attention in all things.///

So it should be for every Christian... and so it was in the OT when the people were commanded to love God with whole heart soul and mind. Nonetheless, God in His wisdom and His grace gave them a special day where they could specially focus on Him. MaryJane, the more that we feel that way about Him the more we are going to cherish a day in which we have nothing else but Him! The more I enjoy my wife every day the more I look forward to special days where we can enjoy one on one time free of distractions. Of course, you and I are talking about preferences, but it does come down to the question of whether or not God's commandments are still applicable to us.

Heydave said: ///Stephen - As you stated that the Sunday Sabbath is something we should be keeping, I think it only right that you tell us how exactly you keep this day in a practical outworking, so we can see what you mean.///

Brother, I think someone else on this thread has pointed out that often at the end of a Sunday they are tired out. So am I... but I believe it was the Pharisees mistake to think the Sabbath was a day off. The Sabbath even in the OT was very busy for the Levites. The Sabbath is a day for worship not a day off.

I can tell you a little of what I do, but far less important than how I keep the day is how the day should be kept.

In my home we try do all our chores the day before, so that on Sunday we don't have any work to do (and we don't make others work by going to restaurants). We also put aside all kinds of entertainment and sports... then with all that free time we go to worship service twice, and in between we do Bible stories and worship with the kids. In our home we try to - in a sense - shut ourselves up with God. This is how our forefathers treated the day and the more that I have sought to keep this day holy the more that the Lord has blessed our family. Our whole family looks forward to Sundays, and we come away physically tired but spiritually refreshed.

Bearmaster, Acts 15 is dealing with the ceremonial component of the law. Of course, the 10 commandments when treated as a means of salvation or justification are a burden no one can bear. I find it very fascinating that when we take the 10 commandments to the unsaved they invariably take offense. To the unbeliever God's holy standards are a burden that is unbearable. What makes the Christian such a miracle is that he is so changed by the miracle of regeneration that like David he delights in God's law and longs to do it and as Ezekiel 36 says, is actually made able to do it.

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous (1 Jn 5.3)." What I find sad, is when Christians talk like non-Christians. No, the law properly understood is not a burden but a joy! "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

We could discuss Hebrews more, but I gather from the posts so far that the debate we are having is more fundamental... its back to the question of the newness of the new covenant. Does our Bible begin at Matthew or Genesis?

 2013/11/6 9:34
Heydave
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a-servant... Well that sure is a long way round to say what?
A lot of words that we would agree on, but I'm not sure what your answer is!

I think you are saying the law of the Sabbath is on our hearts. If so does that mean we would naturally enjoy that 'rest in God' and be set apart for him every day or just one special day?

Quote:"Are the 10 commandments "requirement" for gentiles? Once you are part of the family of God, there are no more gentiles. We are part of God's economy and join his plan, Jesus does not join the American or British church."

Of course there is no difference. All believers are one family. I thought you would understand what I meant by the subject matter, not pick apart every word.


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Dave

 2013/11/6 9:41Profile





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