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you can throw stones as much want at charismatic’s but your branch of the church is as dead
So you’re a cessationist because of experience, hmmmm “The pot calling the kettle black”.
What good are gifts and "rushing winds" and hearing directly from the Lord as you purport, brother, when all you seem to exude is anger and sneering at anyone who challenges your convictions in these forums. Please try to keep this conversation humane by avoiding personal barbs like the ones above, or the thread will be terminated.
Thank you for your consideration in this matter.
Paul Frederick West
| 2013/11/6 13:33||Profile|
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Quote: all you seem to exude is anger and sneering at anyone who challenges your convictions.
What’s the motive behind this over dramatization you have either greatly misunderstood what I wrote or you seek to discredit me in some way by taking the quotes out of context. I hope it’s not the later…
| 2013/11/6 21:04||Profile|
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I hope I have misunderstood you. But the fact is this is how you are coming across. Brother, please prayerfully take heed to the tenor of your writing.
Paul Frederick West
| 2013/11/6 21:23||Profile|
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Colin, I read previously you mentioned Aberdeen, and to "take the city" for Christ.
is that Kingdom Now/Dominion Theology?
where is that described, or even hinted at in the NT?
| 2013/11/6 22:12||Profile|
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"Quote by a servant: Any spiritual energy force, that can be detected by the human senses is highly suspect, because the Holy Spirit does not operate in our senses.
"Quote by murrcolr: So the Holy Spirit doesn’t operate in our senses so that will also rules out our understanding as well then? When I was filled with Holy Spirit it was a physical wind that blew into me, then I spoke in tongues. Why do you think that it called it a mighty rushing wind in Acts because that’s what they experienced with there senses."
No it does not rule out our understanding, the new birth corrects the position of our soul's dominance to second place under the human spirit. Where the Holy Spirit communicates with our human spirit. And only there. I'm not talking about the historic event of how the Holly Spirit arrived, more about the every day meetings. Much better explanation: Watchman Nee "The Latent Power of the Soul" - it's also in full in an old thread here at the forum. A must read, because not many people teach this, Charismatics simply fall into the world of personal experiences of supernatural manifestations like kids into a toy store without any reference, or discernment. Don't presume anything, test the spirits.
| 2013/11/7 8:08||Profile|
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Quote by Paul West: But the fact is this is how you are coming across. Brother, please prayerfully take heed to the tenor of your writing.
I have taken note of your observations and I will be more careful in my communications.
Quote by A-Servant: is that Kingdom Now/Dominion Theology?
No, Dominion Theology is a false teaching because in a sense it calls for a political takeover of the nations by Christians.
During the revival of Wesley time it was said that a third of the population of England were Methodists. Methodism has also a great effect on other nations, take for example the circuit riders and there effect on the USA. A move of God will affect nations because the people of the nation will be affected by it.
Quote by A-Servant:: No it does not rule out our understanding, the new birth corrects the position of our soul's dominance to second place under the human spirit.
I would agree that the Holy Spirit communicates with our human spirit after conversion, but I will strongly disagree the new birth corrects the position of our soul's dominance. The soul after the new birth still wants the reigns of control so you must choose to yield to the leadings of the Spirit after conversion.
Now getting back to the Holy Spirit not being able to operate in our senses, what is the soul --- your mind will and emotions. Think about these emotions --- thankfulness, joy, elation, jubilation, sorrow, grief – so when you have fallen and sinned you haven’t sensed or “felt” sorrow or grief for sinning against God, yes of course you have. What about when you’re praying you haven’t expressed thankfulness towards God for his goodness. When you had a prayer answered you haven’t experienced joy, elation and jubilation.
Quote: Charismatics simply fall into the world of personal experiences of supernatural manifestations like kids into a toy store without any reference, or discernment.
That’s a generalized statement that covers every Charismatic Christian, not all Charismatic Christian act that way and it’s unfair to say that of all of them.
| 2013/11/8 11:03||Profile|
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Quote by Krautuf: There are practices in the charismatic church that are not scriptural like the tongue speaking we see. The scripture says it is the ability to speak foreign languages, but I believe in prophecy and healing word of knowledge etc
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1 Cor 14:2
I don’t deny that speaking in tongues can be a foreign language, however your point that it's not biblical is easily overturned with the scripture above, speaking in a an unknown tongue that no man can understand is biblical.
| 2013/11/9 8:00||Profile|
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I agree murrcolr, but someone can find a "scholar" that will refute 1 cor 14:2. Did not say "can refute", but "will refute".
Unknown tongue means "UNKNOWN", and "For no man understandeth him", seems fairly simple to understand.
Speaking in tongues can be a foreign language or an unknown language that men cannot understand.
The scriptures are crystal clear on this.
| 2013/11/9 11:33|
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The meaning of my words was that most of what we see in charismatic churches is not scriptural tongue speaking however we might interpret that as it does not correspond with the instructions given by Paul, ie under the control of the HS, spoken by 2 and at most 3 with interpretation.
The verse you quoted cannot be taken out of the full passage and is not as clear as you say and is hotly disputed by scholars who say that he whole passage is fraught with difficulties. Only a superficial reading will make it simple.
In the Corinthian church, there was a problem over the practise of babbling found amongst other pagan religions and Paul speaks of this as well as the true gift of tongues. It is unrealistic to think that in Corinth where the worship of Diana was so prevalent, that there would not be a problem and that the pagan practise would not be invading the church.
But anyway, I am quoting one scholar on this passage that is to say, Adam Clarke.
Verse 2. "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue" - This chapter is crowded with difficulties. It is not likely that the Holy Spirit should, in the church, suddenly inspire a man with the knowledge of some foreign language, which none in the church understood but himself; and lead him to treat the mysteries of Christianity in that language, though none in the place could profit by his teaching.
Dr. Lightfoot's mode of reconciling these difficulties is the most likely I have met with. He supposes that by the unknown tongue the Hebrew is meant, and that God restored the true knowledge of this language when he gave the apostles the gift of tongues. As the Scriptures of the Old Testament were contained in this language, and it has beauties, energies, and depths in it which no verbal translation can reach, it was necessary, for the proper elucidation of the prophecies concerning the Messiah, and the establishment of the Christian religion, that the full meaning of the words of this sacred language should be properly understood. And it is possible that the Hebrew Scriptures were sometimes read in the Christian congregations as they were in the Jewish synagogues; and if the person who read and understood them had not the power and faculty of explaining them to others, in vain did he read and understand them himself.
And we know that it is possible for a man to understand a language, the force, phraseology, and idioms of which he is incapable of explaining even in his mother tongue. We shall see, in the course of these notes, how this view of the subject will apply to the illustration of the apostle's words throughout the chapter.
"Speaketh not unto men, but unto God" - None present understanding the language, God alone knowing the truth and import of what he says:-
In the spirit he speaketh mysteries.] Though his own mind (for so pneumati is understood here by many eminent critics) apprehends the mysteries contained in the words which he reads or utters; but if, by the spirit, we understand the Spirit of God, it only shows that it is by that Spirit that he is enabled to speak and apprehend these mysteries. See the note on 1 Cor. xiv. 19.
Verse 3. "But he that prophesieth" - The person who has the gift of teaching is much more useful to the Church than he is who has only the gift of tongues, because he speaks to the profit of men: viz. to their edification, by the Scriptures he expounds; to their exhortation, by what he teaches; and to their comfort, by his revelation. - Whitby. I must here refer to my sermon on this text, intitled, "The Christian Prophet and his Work," in which I have endeavoured to consider the whole of this subject at large.
Verse 4. "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue" - In the Hebrew for instance, the knowledge of the depth and power of which he has got by a Divine revelation, edifieth himself by that knowledge.
"But he that prophesieth" - Has the gift of preaching.
"Edifieth the Church." - Speaketh unto men to edification, exhortation, and comfort, ver. 3.
Verse 5. "I would that ye all spake with tongues" - The word qelw does not so much imply a wish or desire, as a command or permission. As if he had said: I do not restrain you to prophesying or teaching though I prefer that; but I give you full permission to speak in Hebrew whenever it is proper, and when one is present who can interpret for the edification of the Church, provided yourselves have not that gift, though you understand the language. The apostle said tongue, in the singular number, 1 Corinthians xiv. 2, 4, because he spoke of a single man; now he says tongues, in the plural number, because he speaks of many speaking; but he has the same meaning in both places. - Lightfoot.
"Greater is he that prophesieth" - A useful, zealous preacher, though unskilled in learned languages, is much greater in the sight of God, and in the eye of sound common sense, than he who has the gift of those learned tongues; except he interpret: and we seldom find great scholars good preachers. This should humble the scholar, who is too apt to be proud of his attainments, and despise his less learned but more useful brother. This judgment of St. Paul is too little regarded.
Verse 6. "Speaking with tongues" - Without interpreting.
"What shall I profit you?" - i.e. I shall not profit you; Except I shall speak to you either by revelation] Of some secret thing; or by knowledge, of some mystery; or by prophesying, foretelling some future event; or by doctrine, instructing you what to believe and practice.- See Whitby. These four words are taken in different acceptations by learned men. The general sense of the terms is that given above: but the peculiar meaning of the apostle is perhaps not easily discerned.
Verse 7. "And even things without life" - I may, as if he had said, illustrate this farther by referring to a pipe or harp; if these were to utter mere sounds without order, harmony, or melody, though every tone of music might be in the sounds, surely no person could discern a tune in such sounds, nor receive pleasure from such discords: even so is the person who speaks in an unknown tongue, but does not interpret. His speech tends no more to edification than those discordant and unmeaning sounds do to pleasure and delight.
Verse 8. "If the trumpet give an uncertain sound" - If, when the soldier should prepare himself for the battle, the trumpet should give a different sound to that which is ordinarily used on such occasions, the soldier is not informed of what he should do, and therefore does not arm himself; consequently, that vague, unintelligible sound of the trumpet, is of no use.
Verse 9. "Likewise ye" - If ye do not speak in the Church so as to be understood, your labour is useless; ye shall speak into the air-your speech will be lost and dissipated in the air, without conveying any meaning to any person: there will be a noise or sound, but nothing else. Gifts of that kind, thus used, are good for nothing.
Verse 10. "There are, it may be" - ei tucoi, For example.
"So many kinds of voices" - So many different languages, each of which has its distinct articulation, pronunciation, emphasis, and meaning; or there may be so many different nations, each possessing a different language, &c.
Verse 11. "If I know not the meaning of the voice" - thn dunamiv thv fwnhv, The power and signification of the language.
"I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian" - I shall appear to him, and he to me, as a person who had no distinct and articulate sounds which can convey any kind of meaning. This observation is very natural: when we hear persons speaking in a language of which we know nothing, we wonder how they can understand each other, as, in their speech, there appears to us no regular distinction of sounds or words. For the meaning and origin of the word barbarian, see the note on Acts xxviii. 2.
Verse 12. "For as much as ye are zealous" - Seeing ye affect so much to have spiritual gifts, seek that ye may get those by which ye may excel in edifying the Church.
Verse 13. "Pray that he may interpret." - Let him who speaks or reads the prophetic declarations in the Old Testament, in that tongue in which they were originally spoken and written, pray to God that he may so understand them himself, and receive the gift of interpretation, that he may be able to explain them in all their depth and latitude to others.
Verse 14. "For if I pray in an unknown tongue" - If my prayers are composed of sentences and sayings taken out of the prophets, &c., and in their own language-my spirit prayeth, my heart is engaged in the work, and my prayers answer all the purpose of prayers to myself; but my understanding is unfruitful to all others, because they do not understand my prayers, and I either do not or cannot interpret them. See the note on ver. 19.
Verse 16. "He that occupieth the room of the unlearned" - One who is not acquainted with the language in which you speak, sing, or pray.
"Say Amen" - Give his assent and ratification to what he does not understand. It was very frequent in primitive times to express their approbation in the public assemblies by Amen. This practice, soberly and piously conducted, might still be of great use in the Church of Christ.
This response was of the highest authority and merit among the Jews; they even promised the remission of all sins, the annihilation of the sentence of damnation, and the opening of the gates of paradise, to those who fervently say Amen. And it is one of their maxims that "greater is he who says Amen than he who prays." See many testimonies of this kind in Schoettgen. Now, allowing that this was of so much consequence in tho time of St. Paul, it was a very serious matter for a person to be in a congregation where prayer was offered, who could not say Amen, because the prayers were in a language which he did not understand.
Verse 17. "Thou verily givest thanks well" - Because he felt gratitude, and, from a sense of his obligation, gave praise to God; but because this was in an unknown tongue, those who heard him received no edification.
Verse 18. "I speak with tongues more than ye all" - He understood more languages than any of them did: and this was indispensably necessary, as he was the apostle of the Gentiles in general, and had to preach to different provinces where different dialects, if not languages, were used. In the Hebrew, Syriac, Greek, and Latin, he was undoubtedly well skilled from his education; and how many he might understand by miraculous gift we cannot tell. But, even literally understood, it is very probable that he knew more languages than any man in the Church of Corinth.
Verse 19. "Yet in the church" - As the grand object of public worship is the edification of those who attend, five words spoken so as to convey edification, were of much more consequence than ten thousand which, not being understood, could convey none. By the word glwssh, tongue, to which we add unknown, I suppose the apostle always means the Hebrew, for the reasons offered in the note on ver. 1.
One of the greatest difficulties, says Bishop Pearce, in this epistle is contained in the words pneuma and nouv, spirit and understanding, which are frequently used in this chapter; and fixing the true meaning of these words will solve the difficulty. In this verse the apostle explains lalein tw voi, to speak with the understanding, by ina allouv kathchsw, that I might teach others; so that the sense of nouv, understanding, seems to be, that understanding which the hearer has of what is said; and this sense will agree well with, I will sing with the spirit, and with the understanding, ver. 15.
He observes also that pneuma spirit, and nouv, understanding, have a sense opposite to each other; so that if nouv is rightly rendered, the understanding which another has of what is said; then pneuma will signify a man's own mind, i.e. his own understanding of what he himself speaks; and this sense agrees well with ver. 2: In the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Verse 20. "Be not children in understanding" - There are three words here to which we must endeavour to affix the proper sense. paidia signifies children in general, but particularly such as are grown up, so as to be fit to send to school in order to receive instruction; 2. nhpiov, from nh, not, and eipw, I speak, signifies an infant; one that cannot yet speak, and is in the lowest stage of infancy; 3. teleioi, from telew, I complete or perfect, signifies those who are arrived at perfect maturity, both of growth and understanding. We shall now see the apostle's meaning: Brethren, be not, paidia, as little children, just beginning to go to school, in order to learn the first elements of their mother tongue, and with an understanding only sufficient to apprehend those elements.
"In malice" - kakia, In wickedness, nhpiazete, be ye as infants, who neither speak, do, nor purpose evil.
"But in understanding" - teleioi ginesqe, Be ye perfect men, whose vigour of body, and energy of mind show a complete growth, and a well cultivated understanding.
Verse 21. "In the law it is written" - But the passage quoted is in Isa. xxviii. 11. Here is no contradiction, for the term hryt torah, LAW, was frequently used by the Jews to express the whole Scriptures, law, prophets, and hagiographia; and they used it to distinguish these sacred writings from the words of the scribes.
"With men of other tongues" - Bishop Pearce paraphrases this verse as follows: "With the tongues of foreigners and with the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people; and yet, for all that, will they not hear me, saith the Lord." To enter into the apostle's meaning we must enter into that of the prophet. The Jewish people were under the teaching of the prophets who were sent from God; these instructed, reproved, and corrected them by this Divine authority. They however became so refractory and disobedient that God purposed to cast them off, and abandon them to the Babylonians: then, they had a people to teach, correct, and reprove them, whose language they did not understand. The discipline that they received in this way was widely different from that which they received while under the teaching of the prophets and the government of God; and yet for all this they did not humble themselves before their Maker that this affliction might be removed from them.
Verse 22. "Wherefore tongues are for a sign" - The miraculous gift of tongues was never designed for the benefit of those who have already believed, but for the instruction of unbelievers, that they might see from such a miracle that this is the work of God; and so embrace the Gospel.
But as, in the times of the prophet, the strange Babylonish tongues came in the way of punishment, and not in the way of mercy; take heed that it be not the case now: that, by dwelling on the gift, ye forget the Giver; and what was designed for you as a blessing, may prove to you to be a curse.
For if, because ye have the gift of tongues, ye will choose for your own aggrandizement to use them in the public congregation where none understands them, God may curse your blessings.
"Prophesying" - Teaching the things of God in a known language is of infinitely more consequence than speaking in all the foreign tongues in the universe.
Verse 23. "Will they not say that ye are mad?" - So they well might, finding a whole assembly of people talking languages which those who had most need of instruction could not understand.
Verse 24. "But if all prophecy" - If all those who teach do it in the tongue which all understand; if an unbeliever, or one who knows nothing of the sacred language, come in and hear things just suited to his own state, he is convicted by all, and he is judged by all.
Verse 25. "And thus are the secrets of his heart" - As these, who were the prophets or teachers, had often the discernment of spirits, they were able in certain cases, and probably very frequently, to tell a man the secrets of his own heart; and, where this was not directly the case, God often led his ministers to speak those things that were suitable to the case before them, though they themselves had no particular design. The sinner, therefore, convinced that God alone could uncover the secrets of his heart, would be often obliged to fall down on his face, abashed and confounded, and acknowledge that God was truly among them. This seems to be the plain meaning of the passages before us.
Verse 26. "How is it-every one of you hath a psalm, &c." - Dr. Lightfoot understands this in the following manner: When the congregation came together, some were for spending the time in psalmody; others in explaining particular doctrines; others in reading, praying, or speaking in the Hebrew tongue; others were curious to hear of farther revelations; and others wished to spend the time in the interpretation of what had already been spoken. This may be specious, but to me it is not satisfactory. It seems more likely that, when the whole Church came together, among whom there were many persons with extraordinary gifts, each of them wished to put himself forward, and occupy the time and attention of the congregation: hence confusion must necessarily take place, and perhaps not a little contention. This was contrary to that edifying which was the intention of these gifts.
Verse 27. "Speak in an unknown tongue" - The Hebrew, as has already been conjectured.
"Let it be by two; or at the most by three, and that by course" - Let only two or three in one assembly act in this way, that too much time may not be taken up with one exercise; and let this be done by course, the one after the other, that two may not be speaking at the same time: and let one interpret for all that shall thus speak.
Verse 28. "But if there be no interpreter" - If there be none present who can give the proper sense of this Hebrew reading and speaking, then let him keep silence, and not occupy the time of the Church, by speaking in a language which only himself can understand.
Verse 29. "Let the prophets" - Those who have the gift of speaking to men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort; 1 Corinthians xiv. 3.
"Two or three" - As prophesying implied psalmody, teaching, and exhortation, Dr. Lightfoot thinks that the meaning of the place is this: Let one sing who has a psalm; let another teach who has a doctrine; and let a third exhort, or comfort, who has a gift of that kind.
"And let the other judge." - The other prophets, or qualified persons, judge of the propriety of what had been spoken; or let them discern, diakrintwsan, how the revelation under the new covenant confirmed and illustrated the revelation granted under the Old Testament. It appears to have been taken for granted, that a man might pretend to this spirit of prophecy who was not sent of God; and therefore it was the duty of the accredited teachers to examine whether what he spoke was according to truth, and the analogy of faith. For the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets; every man's gift was to be judged of by those whose age, experience, and wisdom, gave them a right to decide. Besides, though the person who did speak might do it from an impulse of God, yet, if he was not sufficiently known, his testimony ought to be received with caution; and therefore the aged prophets should judge of his gift, lest false doctrines should slide into the Church.
But all these provisions, as Schoettgen justly observes, were in imitation of the practice in the Jewish synagogues; for there it was customary for them to object, interrogate, judge, refute, &c.
Verse 30. "Be revealed to another that sitteth by" - Probably those who were teachers sat on a particular seat, or place, from which they might most readily address the people; and this may be the meaning of sitting by. If such a person could say, I have just received a particular revelation from God, then let him have the liberty immediately to speak it; as it might possibly relate to the circumstances of that time and place.
Verse 31. "For ye may all prophesy one by one" - The gifts which God grants are given for the purpose of edification; but there can be no edification where there is confusion; therefore let them speak one by one.
Verse 32. "And the spirits of the prophets, &c." - Let no one interrupt another; and let all be ready to prefer others before themselves; and let each feel a spirit of subjection to his brethren. God grants no ungovernable gifts.
Verse 33. "For God is not the author of confusion" - Let not the persons who act in the congregation in this disorderly manner, say, that they are under the influence of God; for he is not the author of confusion; but two, three, or more, praying or teaching in the same place, at the same time, is confusion; and God is not the author of such work; and let men beware how they attribute such disorder to the God of order and peace. The apostle calls such conduct akatastasia, tumult, sedition; and such it is in the sight of God, and in the sight of all good men. How often is a work of God marred and discredited by the folly of men! for nature will always, and Satan too, mingle themselves as far as they can in the genuine work of the Spirit, in order to discredit and destroy it. Nevertheless, in great revivals of religion it is almost impossible to prevent wild-fire from getting in amongst the true fire; but it is the duty of the ministers of God to watch against and prudently check this; but if themselves encourage it, then there will be confusion and every evil work.
| 2013/11/9 12:42|
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Quote: This chapter is crowded with difficulties. It is not likely that the Holy Spirit should, in the church, suddenly inspire a man with the knowledge of some foreign language, which none in the church understood but himself; and lead him to treat the mysteries of Christianity in that language, though none in the place could profit by his teaching.
But it's not crowded with difficulties if you believe it, as he speaks in an unknown tongue builds himself up.
I remember the first time I stepped into the church and during praise they all began to sing in tongues, it sounded heavenly to me as I sat in there midst weeping. Then as the preacher preached God spoke directly to me through his words.(Prophecy)
| 2013/11/9 14:51||Profile|