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murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 The miraculous gifts of the Spirit ceased-???????

Most cessationists, including MacArthur, teach that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit ceased when the canon of Scripture (the completed writings of the Bible) was completed. Either that or they say the gifts ceased in A.D. 70. They maintain that the Bible answers all of our spiritual questions and negates the need for the miraculous manifestations of 1 Corinthians 12.

In my opinion, this idea is a colossal stretch of logic and imagination.

Despite MacArthur's claim, there is no verse in the New Testament that suggests that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit have ceased or will pass away before Christ's second coming.

The burden of proof, therefore, rests upon those who would say that the work of the Spirit has somehow changed since Paul's day.

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 is the only text in the entire Bible that is routinely interpreted to support the cessationist view.

Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; BUT WHEN THE PERFECT COMES, THE PARTIAL WILL BE DONE AWAY . . . For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

Here, Paul's main point is that although the gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge will one day cease, love will never cease. Paul goes on to explain how the gifts of the Spirit are in part. This means that they do not reveal the complete mind or will of God, but only a fragment of it.

However, when "the perfect" comes, all things which are "in part" will cease to function.

Paul uses an illustration to describe what he means by "the perfect" saying that we now see through a glass darkly, but when the perfect comes, we will have a face-to-face knowledge of all things. Paul says that when the perfect comes, he will know "fully just as I also have been fully known." In other words, when the perfect comes, Paul will know all things to the same degree that God knows him.

What, then, is the perfect?

Is it the Bible as cessationists teach?

Or is it the perfect state that Christ will usher in at His second coming? A strong case can be made that it is the latter.

Here are the reasons:

1. When Jesus returns, and we see Him face-to-face, we will have perfect knowledge and tongues, prophecy, and knowledge itself will cease.

Paul uses the same word in Philippians 3 when speaking about the resurrection.

. . . That by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already PERFECT, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Phil. 3:11-12

When we are resurrected, we will know "even as we are known." And there will be no need for prophecy, tongues, or even knowledge, for we will already know all things.

Does the Bible give us this kind of perfect knowledge wherein we know even as we are known by God? Hardly.

While my view of Scripture is very high, believing it to be fully inspired, fully authoritative, and fully reliable, the Bible does not end the role of spiritual gifts. Nor does it give us perfect knowledge into every question we may have.

2. Paul says that knowledge will cease along with tongues and prophecy.

But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

What cessationist would say that knowledge has passed away with the completed writings of the Bible? One has to do a lot of exegetical gymnastics to make that formula work.

3. It is exotically rare to find one commentary written before 1960 that interprets "the perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13 to be the closing of the biblical canon.

Surprisingly, it is only after the Jesus movement and the charismatic movement blossomed that cessationist leaders began connecting "the perfect" with the closing of the canon of Scripture.

The interpretation which suggests that "the perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 refers to the coming of Jesus (the parousia) represents the historical heritage of the church. The view that says "the perfect" refers to the closing of the biblical canon is a fairly recent interpretation with scant appearances before 1960. (Note to my Reformed brethren: even Calvin and Augustine did not interpret 1 Corinthians 13:10 this way.) The "biblical canon" view developed out of the controversy over present-day manifestations of the Spirit. And it can be traced only to the mid or early 20th century, though there were a tiny number of occurrences before the 19th century.

4. The cessationist theory of 1 Corinthians 13 fails the practical application test.

Cessationists assert that there is no need for the revelatory gifts of the Spirit today because the Bible is all-sufficient for supplying us with an exhaustive knowledge of God's will.

But consider the following biblical examples of how the revelatory gifts of the Spirit were used in the first century, and ask yourself this question when reading them:

Could the Bible reveal these same things to us today and thus substitute for these spiritual gifts?

a) Peter received a supernatural word that Ananias and Sapphira were lying to the church and to God (Acts 5:1-10).

b) Through the gift of prophecy, a sinner's heart is exposed and falls to his knees claiming that God is alive through His people (1 Cor. 14:24-25).

c) Philip was specifically instructed to preach the gospel to a certain man whose heart God had prepared (Acts 8:29).

d) Agabus prophesied about a future famine that would grip the whole world, enabling the church to prepare for it (Acts 11:28-30).

e) God's Spirit made known the calling of Paul and Barnabas and set them apart to begin a specific work of ministry (Acts 13:2). 21

f) The Spirit of God prohibited the apostles from ministering in certain areas for a season (Acts 16:6-7).

g) Paul received a night vision which instructed him to go into Macedonia to preach the gospel (Acts 16:9).

h) Agabus foretold Paul's fate in going to Jerusalem, hence, preparing him for what was to come (Acts 21:11).

i) Peter received instructions from the Spirit to go with certain men sent from Cornelius (Acts 10:20). Peter was reluctant since they were Gentiles.

j) Peter discerned the spiritual state of Simon (Acts 8:23), and Paul discerned the spiritual state of Elymas (Acts 13:8-11), speaking words of correction and judgment to them.

I could multiply many more examples from the New Testament. But clearly, the above incidents show that the Bible cannot substitute for or replace the supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/11/5 8:05Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: The miraculous gifts of the Spirit ceased-???????

Colin: Quite right brother. There is no solid scriptural support for cessationalism, and there is a WEALTH of scripture that clearly teaches and demonstrates the ongoing manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit. I have never seen an "ism" that did not eventually twist or take out of context scriptures in support of their particular slant on theology or doctrine.

Unfortunately it is easy to do. For whatever reason, a person decides that his slant has to be right and has to be supported, and he is tempted to ignore or misrepresent scripture to one degree or another in order to do that.


_________________
Travis

 2013/11/5 15:27Profile









 Re:

God is dead if they ceased and I know God is not dead.

 2013/11/5 17:41
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

If you were to lock a brand-new Christian in a room with a Bible and tell him to study what the Scriptures have to say about healing miracles and tongues, he would never come out of the room a cessationist.





_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/11/5 18:00Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

The gifts have not ceased, neither are they to be chased, or adored and worshipped, neither are they controlled by human will.

A movement of "humanly controlled gifts" where people speak in tongues on command

heal people on command

and prophesy based on their own will or imaginations

are closely related to witchcraft, better known as christian mysticism and christian occultism. They are not of God.

So a cessationist might lack faith, or wasn't such a diehard unbeliever even as a young Christian that Jesus showed him His power in form of a spiritual gift. In order to lead him to Christ, that should always be the only reason for a gift. Not gifts for gift's sake, that is idolatry.

On the other side of the equation, a undiscerning believer that attributes sensual sensations (physical or emotional) as working of the Holy Spirit is in serious trouble, it is not just a lack of faith, it is a matter of being under the control of a different spirit, see:

Jude 1:17  But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Any spiritual energy force, that can be detected by the human senses is highly suspect, because the Holy Spirit does not operate in our senses.
He only operates in our human spirit. The difference of soul and spirit is explained for example by Watchman Nee, in his book "The Latent Power of the Soul" - it's available free online.

The soul is Satans place of operation, especially in the endtimes to build his global kingdom, in a final attempt to take global control over humanity, including the saints of God.

A good example of an sensual energy force felt "similar to electricity" is:

"John Arnott says about manifestation expectations: "People ask us all the time, "What do you feel?" and that's a valid question. At first, it's almost imperceptible, but you think your hands are feeling a little heavier, this is my experience, and as you love Him, and stay tuned to that and say, "Oh, Lord, more of your presence," and it gets heavier and they begin to tingle, kind of, sort of like electricity and it can flow all up and down your arms and all over your face and up and down your legs and when it really increases, it's like you're being electrocuted, almost." The Bible says, however" Jude 19-20 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost. James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. (Toronto Leaders Speak for Themselves, Bob Hunter, 1997)"

Benny Hinn also spoke of electricity as a sensual experience of his anointing. He also said: "Hinn revealed that he periodically visits (Kathryn) Kuhlman's grave and that he is one of the few with a key to gain access to it. He also visits Aimee (McPherson's) grave where he says: "I felt a terrific anointing ... I was shaking all over ... trembling under the power of God ... `Dear God,' I said, `I feel the anointing.' ... I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee's body."

What adds necromancy to spiritual insult. It's very hard to convince people that get slain by such a person that it is not done by the power of Holy Spirit, we can only pray that Jesus shows them the way out of the sensual deception, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20




 2013/11/5 20:59Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by murrcolr on 2013/11/5 18:00:02

If you were to lock a brand-new Christian in a room with a Bible and tell him to study what the Scriptures have to say about healing miracles and tongues, he would never come out of the room a cessationist.



So true, so true. Reminds me of the saying:

"God said it, I believe it, that settles it."

I was pretty much "locked in a room with a Bible" in my early days and I did not come out anything near a Cessationist. In fact, since the Bible does not mention anything about Cessationism, I did not even know the word existed.

 2013/11/6 1:39









 Re:

The man who has been locked in a room with a Bible and who goes straight to any charismatic church, will be struck by how much difference there is from what he has been reading.

He will think that the so called tongues spoken are not in obedience to scripture, are not a foreign language, are not spoken by only two or three with an interpreter, and are not used as a sign for unbelievers (who are pretty freaked out by the experience until they are talked into accepting it.)

He will not see blind men given sight and very little real healing indeed apart from unsubstantiated aches and pains.

He will not see men falling on their faces (not backwards) when the presence of God is manifest as is clear from scripture. Falling backwards is a sign of another presence.

He will notice that those who claim to have such gifts look no different from other men, and look like they have the same problems with sin as other men, including not being able to control their manner of speaking (control of the tongue), not able to control their appetites and are therefore overweight and unhealthy looking, and when you speak to them, do not strike you as full of holiness and grace. He would expect that men who make such claims, as being more in touch with the Holy Spirit than other men, do not live lives that you see demonstrated by the apostles. He will notice that these men are moved by emotions and not by their spirits indwelt by God's Spirit.

So he will go off and wonder why.

 2013/11/6 6:42









 Re:

Amen, Krautfrau.

Quote:
he man who has been locked in a room with a Bible and who goes straight to any charismatic church, will be struck by how much difference there is from what he has been reading.



It's all a big show. Play acting but living like worldly men. Holiness and purity are absent, overcoming is non-existent.

 2013/11/6 7:51
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote by Aservent: The gifts have not ceased, neither are they to be chased, or adored and worshipped, neither are they controlled by human will.

But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. 1 Cor 12:31

Scripture tells us to covet earnestly for the best gifts, to me that say they are something to be chased.

Quote by Aservent: A movement of "humanly controlled gifts" where people speak in tongues on command.

I can choose to speak in tongues while in prayer and I won’t be controlled by anyone that would seek to stop me.

Quote by Aservent: Any spiritual energy force, that can be detected by the human senses is highly suspect, because the Holy Spirit does not operate in our senses.

So the Holy Spirit doesn’t operate in our senses so that will also rules out our understanding as well then? When I was filled with Holy Spirit it was a physical wind that blew into me, then I spoke in tongues. Why do you think that it called it a mighty rushing wind in Acts because that’s what they experienced with there senses.

Quote by krautfrau: The man who has been locked in a room with a Bible and who goes straight to any charismatic church, will be struck by how much difference there is from what he has been reading.

Here is one of the God said to me first thing God spoke to me about the church – The church is dead – so you can throw stones as much want at charismatic’s but your branch of the church is as dead as the there’s.

Quote by krautfrau: He will not see blind men given sight and very little real healing indeed apart from unsubstantiated aches and pains.

So you’re a cessationist because of experience, hmmmm “The pot calling the kettle black”. Scripture says And these signs shall follow them that believe In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. You either believe it or you don’t.

Quote by krautfrau: He will not see men falling on their faces (not backwards) when the presence of God is manifest as is clear from scripture. Falling backwards is a sign of another presence.

Just where do people get these rules from.. What about crumbling straight, down into heap is that acceptable to you?

Quote by krautfrau: He will notice that those who claim to have such gifts look no different from other men, and look like they have the same problems with sin as other men, including not being able to control their manner of speaking (control of the tongue), not able to control their appetites and are therefore overweight and unhealthy looking, and when you speak to them, do not strike you as full of holiness and grace. He would expect that men who make such claims, as being more in touch with the Holy Spirit than other men, do not live lives that you see demonstrated by the apostles. He will notice that these men are moved by emotions and not by their spirits indwelt by God's Spirit.

Was the church at Corinth perfect?..... No

Did they operate in spiritual gifts?..... Yes

Look at what Pauls says to them “But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way”. 1 Cor 12:31

There is something more than the gifts, the something more excellent is love (not sinless perfection). No wonder Paul prays for the Ephesians "that Christ may dwell IN YOUR HEARTS by faith; to the end that ye being rooted and grounded in LOVE, may be strong to apprehend with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length and height and depth, and to know the LOVE OF CHRIST, which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled unto all the fullness of God" Ephesians 3:17.

Something more than salvation, something more than the gifts of the Spirit “the fullness of God” is being rooted and grounded in LOVE, knowing the LOVE OF CHRIST is to be filled unto all the fullness of God.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/11/6 10:04Profile









 Re:

Brother you have me wrong, I am not a cessationist. I thought you knew that. I am not a Calvinist and think that their side of the church is in as much error but in a different way. The whole church is in a bad way with much error. There is no true holiness teaching going on anywhere.

There are practices in the charismatic church that are not scriptural like the tongue speaking we see. The scripture says it is the ability to speak foreign languages, but I believe in prophecy and healing word of knowledge etc

You are quoting Mark 16 which is highly disputed by scholars to not be inspired so I would not base a doctrine on a verse like that.

No church is perfect, but Paul was correcting them whereas charismatic churches are not correcting themselves in accordance with scripture.

The love of which you speak is perfection. If we love Christ we will obey him perfectly. ES allows us to do that. We both believe in that?

 2013/11/6 12:35





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