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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Did God create evil?

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relewis111
Member



Joined: 2004/12/3
Posts: 51
Pittsburgh,PA

 Re: theological limb

I'd like to go out on a theological limb and feel free to saw it off behind me.
God cannot create sin and God Almighty is not in place in time. Man can not possibly grasp eternity this side of the grave nor can he be ever free from sin. Our nature is one that is based upon opposites, dichomities, lefts and rights, holiness and sin however God alone is truth without deceipt, life without end, and light without darkness or blemish.
We are in fact subject to decay, death and time whereas Almighty God does not exist in time at all. Therefore it is only possible for sin to be revealed in our human nature as the response of will and choice.
In this age to apprehend that promise inherent in our ressurection with Christ is but a small foretaste of the infinite, unmeasurable riches of His grace. We see with weak eyes and hear with dull ears and are shocked and amazed at the depths of human depravity and wickedness while hidden sin in our own heart seperates us from the true revealation of God's eternal holy nature.
I'm am humbled and awed that the perfect Son of God would love someone as filthy as I am and truthfully that fact still sends chills down my spine. To continue on this path of a growing , deepening walk with Christ convinces me even further that the only answer is Jesus Christ and only in the resurrection will I finally know the depth and breadth of the sin s of my heart that seperate me from my Lord and Saviour.

I don't have tons of scripture to back these thoughts but I do know how utterly incapable I am to create grace of my own power and that only Almighty God's mercy and love is the true light by which I must strive to live.

Please don't hesitate to comment because if you were sitting here with me , sharing a cup of coffee I would listen to you with love in my heart and Christ in our presence as we are gathered together in His name.

Rich


_________________
Richard E Lewis III

 2005/3/29 17:25Profile
iHilam
Member



Joined: 2004/2/29
Posts: 22
Florida

 Re:

It's been a few days since I've been online. I see this topic has been fastinatiing. It's gonna take a while for me to read all of these posts.

In Christ,
iHilam


_________________
Ken

 2005/3/29 17:34Profile
iHilam
Member



Joined: 2004/2/29
Posts: 22
Florida

 Re:

Wow, There are some very interesting views.

I guess basically the way I see it is that evil or sin whichever you choose to use are not created to begin with. As with love, faith, hope or peace. These are words that describe the heart or a situation of the heart. Not the heart that pumps the blood through your body. When we say someone is evil, we are simply descibing a persons character or his true heart. That would be the same as describing someone who is good. We all know that God is love. I would have to think the opposite of that (hate) would be evil. When lucifer decided to seperate himself from God thus becoming evil or without God. Sin is a word used to describe evil. If we live in sin we become one with sin and are then made evil (seperated from God). So the word evil was born from the actions of lucifer who lost that name and is now known as satan, devil, etc....


_________________
Ken

 2005/3/29 17:54Profile
kirindor
Member



Joined: 2005/3/29
Posts: 13
Soon to be Upton, MA

 Re: theological limb

Rich,

I would like to echo your thoughts on "the depth and breadth of the sins of my heart." I know that I am so much more concious of sin now than I was 25 years ago when I came to faith.

I often think on the resurrection and our glorification when we will be free from sin. I look forward to being able to look back at myself, so that I might better understand Christ's love and sacrifice for me.

Also, while eternity may be "timeless," it must still have provision for "succession." Because we are finite and the Lord is infinite, we will never fully comprehend Him. There is a sense in which, even on the New Earth, we will be able to say, "I know the Lord better today than yesterday.

For this reason, I believe that time will continue, and that it is a result of our finitude that we can never really escape. Think about it. I think that it makes good logical sense.

In Christ,
adam@adamchristiansen.org
www.adamchristiansen.org


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Adam Christiansen

 2005/3/29 23:38Profile
kirindor
Member



Joined: 2005/3/29
Posts: 13
Soon to be Upton, MA

 Re:

Karl,

The differences between the angels and us fascinate me.

First, Satan was the first to sin, but there seems to be very little fallout from his rebellion, but Adam's sin brought about the Fall and the entrance of sin and death.

Second, the angels, as servants, were created to be powerful, but man was created to morally great. We were created to choose the Lord.

Third, the angels in all their holiness cover their eyes and feet before the Lord, while Adam stood face to face before God. Adam must have created with an unimaginable holiness to have done that.

I could go on and on, but to bring myself back to the topic a bit: the great mystery of evil is how could Holy Adam with every advantage ever fall into sin?

I do not think that we will understand that mystery until we have spent countless ages in the presence of the Lord.

In Christ,
adam@adamchristiansen.org
www.adamchristiansen.org


_________________
Adam Christiansen

 2005/3/29 23:51Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:

kirindor wrote:
Karl,

The differences between the angels and us fascinate me.

First, Satan was the first to sin, but there seems to be very little fallout from his rebellion, but Adam's sin brought about the Fall and the entrance of sin and death.

I'm afraid this is a conclusion based on our ignorance rather than our knowledge. It is recorded that Satan 'defiled his holy places' and in Hebrews that 'the heavenly things' had to be purified. (Heb 9:23) Additionally, the whole 'earth' episode' is a 'stage' in the cosmic rebellion. There may well be 'theatres of war' of which we know nothing.

Quote:
Second, the angels, as servants, were created to be powerful, but man was created to morally great. We were created to choose the Lord.

Angels are described as 'holy', is this not a moral category?

Quote:
Third, the angels in all their holiness cover their eyes and feet before the Lord, while Adam stood face to face before God. Adam must have created with an unimaginable holiness to have done that.

I think your reasoning is mistaken here. God manifests His glory in accordance with the ability of watchers to receive it. No one, not Adam nor angel, could see God and live, if God did not 'veil' His glory. He covers Himself with light as a garment.

Quote:
I do not think that we will understand that mystery until we have spent countless ages in the presence of the Lord.

I am sure you are right!


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/3/30 2:57Profile
kirindor
Member



Joined: 2005/3/29
Posts: 13
Soon to be Upton, MA

 Re:

Ron,


Thanks for the discussion. Pick my argument apart, because I need to make it more rigourous, and the help is appreciated.

Quote:
First, Satan was the first to sin, but there seems to be very little fallout from his rebellion, but Adam's sin brought about the Fall and the entrance of sin and death.



I was less than precise as I worded this. Satan sinned and other angels fell with him. However, when Adam sinned the whole of creation fell with him. Romans 8:19 tells us that the creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. Because the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own will, but by the will of the one who subjected it.

Adam's sin had profound far reaching effects into the whole creation. Creation was fundamentally different after Adam's sin. The same is simply not true of Satan's sin.

Quote:
Second, the angels, as servants, were created to be powerful, but man was created to morally great. We were created to choose the Lord.



This is response avoids what I was suggesting by redirection. You could just as eaasily referenced David's Mighty Men and asked a simlar question,

Quote:
Angels are described as 'holy', is this not a moral category?



You implied a contradiction where none exist. I did not deny that the angels are moral agents, nor did I say that men lacked power. I compared two qualities - power and moral agency, and said that while angels have a greater quantity of the quality of power than we, we have a greater quantity of the quality of moral agency than do the angels.

However, the distinction is real. The last verse of Hebrews 1 makes this apparent. "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?"

There is a qualitative difference between Man and Angels. They are "ministering spirits" and we are the "heirs of salvation." Why is this so? Because we are sons of God by adoption. And a man, Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity, sits on the throne of heaven.

Quote:
Third, the angels in all their holiness cover their eyes and feet before the Lord, while Adam stood face to face before God. Adam must have created with an unimaginable holiness to have done that



To which you responded

Quote:
I think your reasoning is mistaken here. God manifests His glory in accordance with the ability of watchers to receive it. No one, not Adam nor angel, could see God and live, if God did not 'veil' His glory. He covers Himself with light as a garment.



I agree with you objection in principle however I do not believe that you have taken the nature of the Fall into proper account. The nature of the Lord's holiness is expounded in many places.

However, in the Garden, before the Fall, there is no indication that Adam behaved in any manner similar to the angels in veiling their faces and feet before the Lord; instead, there is the most plain indication that they were in inimate communion with one another.

With the Fall, the relationship radically changed. When Adam heard the voice of his Father, he hid himself, because he was naked and afraid. Do you see the significance of this act?

This can also be argued logically by working through questions concerning the nature of our sonship. Will we have a distant father who keeps us at arm length? This seems to go contrary to the very nature of being a child of God.

Even so, I recognize that a transcendent God must condescend to make relationship possible with a finite creature.


_________________
Adam Christiansen

 2005/3/31 0:47Profile
jouko
Member



Joined: 2003/10/9
Posts: 172
Ex-England colony of Australia

 Re:

Below a text that I copied from another writing, a rather long one.
The other text I got from the Bible. :-o

Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

jouko



We desperately need to understand something of the magnitude of sin, of
evil, and of gross wickedness in this world if we are to appreciate our
redemption. God's love, grace, and mercy shine all the brighter against the
awful reality of evil. Indeed, the very existence of evil is a powerful
proof of God's existence and holiness. God says, "I form the light, and
create darkness: I make peace, and create evil..." (Is 45:7). God creates
evil? Yes, the same way that light exposes darkness.

A person who was born, lived, and died in total darkness in a cave deep
beneath the earth would not know that he lived in the dark until someone
came into the cave with a light and the darkness was revealed. In the same
way, God's goodness, perfect holiness, and righteousness reveal evil for
what it is. Without God and the conscience He has given us we would not
recognize evil. Indeed, evil makes good shine all the brighter -- and this
world is full of evil.


_________________
Jouko Hakola

 2005/4/3 8:14Profile





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