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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Did God create evil?

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jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Hi Karl,

Quote:
We can explain this and explain that and we can write large volumes on the origin of evil, but who or what created it?



Evil is not a creation. If evil is a creation then who created goodness?? Or is it a creation?


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/3/27 15:03Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Article by John Macarthur

Here is a section from an excellent article on the origin of evil by John Macarthur:

The source of evil, the source of sin, is outside God. When God created angels and God created humans, he gave them intelligence. He gave them reason, and he gave them choice. And there is a sequence. I put those words in that order for a purpose. Intelligence gave them the ability to understand things. Reason gave them the ability to process that understanding toward behavior. And choice gave them the freedom to determine that behavior. Intelligence, reason, and choice. Bottom line: With what they knew, and with the ability they had to process that information, they would be brought to a choice. And whether angels or men, they would have the choice either to obey God or not to obey God.

Listen to this: To disobey God was to initiate evil. Evil is not the presence of something. Evil is the absence of righteousness. You can't create evil, because evil doesn't exist as a created entity. It doesn't exist as a created reality. Evil is a negative. Evil is the absence of perfection. It's the absence of holiness. It's the absence of goodness. It's the absence of righteousness. Evil became a reality only when creatures chose to disobey. Evil came into existence initially then in the fall of angels. And then next, in the fall of Adam and Eve.

Just put it this way in your mind. Evil is not a created thing. Evil is not a substance. Evil is not an entity. Evil is not a being. Evil is not a force. Evil is not some floating spirit. Evil is a lack of moral perfection. God created absolute perfection. Wherever a lack of that exists, sin exists. And that cannot exist in the nature of God or in anything that God makes. Evil comes into existence when God's creatures fall short of the standard of moral perfection.

Now, let me take it a step further. God did not create evil. He did not author evil. He did not make evil. But listen carefully, very important: God did decree to use evil as a part of his eternal plan, okay? He will not be culpable for it. He did not bring it into existence. That would be impossible because God is good, all good and only good. Therefore, whatever comes out of Him is all good and only good. God can, therefore, produce only good. And what is evil but the absence of that good, which is a choice made by the reasonings based upon the information revealed to his creatures? But, God was not caught off guard. In fact, God decreed that evil would be part of his plan. He is not the creator of evil, and He is not the cause of evil. He did not bring evil into existence in a cosmic sense, and he did not and does not bring evil into existence in a personal sense. He is not the cause of sin, nor is he the cause of sins in the lives of people. But he does use it for his purposes. And that's why in Isaiah 45:7 -- just write this down; you may run across it. It says God creates "calamity." Some older translations say He "creates evil." That is a really poor translation, and not true. God does create "calamity." And if you read the context of Isaiah 45:7, it is clear that judgment is the issue. God does not create evil, but God does bring judgment on evil, creating therefore the calamity by which evil is judged. Now, listen carefully: Scripture written by God always assigns the guilt and responsibility for all sin to creatures; never to God. Never to God. Folks, that's all we know. Okay?


The whole article can be found here:

[url=http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-235.htm]The Origin Of Evil[/url]


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/3/27 15:20Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It's His nature, and God can only be who He is.

Does that mean there is no virtue in God's goodness? Getting into some deep stuff here!


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Ron Bailey

 2005/3/27 16:09Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Article by John Macarthur

Quote:
Listen to this: To disobey God was to initiate evil. Evil is not the presence of something. Evil is the absence of righteousness. You can't create evil, because evil doesn't exist as a created entity. It doesn't exist as a created reality. Evil is a negative. Evil is the absence of perfection. It's the absence of holiness. It's the absence of goodness. It's the absence of righteousness. Evil became a reality only when creatures chose to disobey. Evil came into existence initially then in the fall of angels. And then next, in the fall of Adam and Eve.

I don't think this is true. Evil is much more than the absence of good. Satan is a murderous spirit and would have dethroned God; this is not a mere absence of evil.

Quote:
Just put it this way in your mind. Evil is not a created thing. Evil is not a substance. Evil is not an entity. Evil is not a being. Evil is not a force. Evil is not some floating spirit. Evil is a lack of moral perfection. God created absolute perfection. Wherever a lack of that exists, sin exists. And that cannot exist in the nature of God or in anything that God makes. Evil comes into existence when God's creatures fall short of the standard of moral perfection.


I think this is a defective view of evil.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/3/27 16:13Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Hi Ron,

Quote:
Does that mean there is no virtue in God's goodness? Getting into some deep stuff here!



Of course not. Goodness finds its goodness from the very nature of who God is Himself.

My attempt was to avoid implying that God is subordinate to a moral law above Himself--as if one existed--but that He is in Himself pure actuality. In other words, we can [i]be[/i] good, but God [i]is[/i] goodness its self. I guess to break it down further would be to call God the eternal "uncaused cause".

I'm not really sure if I agree completely with your thoughts on evil being some sort of entity. How Satan fell without an outside force tempting him is a mystery somewhat. I can only conclude from what I read in the scriptures that something rose up in himself. But at this level it's easy to take off into speculations.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/3/27 16:27Profile









 Re: Article by John Macarthur

Quote:
He did not bring it into existence



God did not bring evil into existance. Hmmmm, So there must be a creative force outside of God that wills against God to create.

Quote:
The source of evil,....... is outside God



"Behold the lamb of God that was slain BEFORE the foundation of the world".

Now I ask you did Adam and Eve have a free will?

According to that verse, they did not, yet because they chose that tree, they were given certain evils.

Now God drew from that evil, where did He get it from if it was outside Himself?

God also cursed the ground from His mouth, evil came to the ground.

God is all loving, yet here we have God drawing from an evil source and placing evil into the ground and causing all havoc to spring forth.

Quote:
You can't create evil

Evil came into existence initially then in the fall.

Ok, Mr MacArther says in the same paragraph in the above quote that evil can't be created, yet in the same breath it came into existance in the fall of the Angels.

Does that make sense to anyone?

What doesn't make sense is this, who created the negative part and the positive part? If good is positive which God created all things to be, what brought the negative into being? Think about it. In order for us to believe that there is a negative force out there, that negativity must come from an actual source. It has an origin otherwise there would be no such a thing as a negative.

God said to the Adam and Eve, "The day you eat of this tree, you shall die". Where did this concept of death come from? Before them there was no death, only life.

We know what death is, it's all around us, but what if we lived in a paradise and that those thoughts don't even exist and God comes to us and tells us an ultimative on something and if we were to partake of it then we would surely die.

The question that would be on everyone's mind is what is death? What does He mean die?

Quote:
Some older translations say He "creates evil." That is a really poor translation, and not true. God does create "calamity." And if you read the context of Isaiah 45:7, it is clear that judgment is the issue. God does not create evil, but God does bring judgment on evil, creating therefore the calamity by which evil is judged.



So why don't we just throw the KJV bible out, it's not safe to read because it is poor in translation.

Has anyone ever looked at a comparison between the KJV and the RSV? The RSV removes large portions of verses to accomodate it's revision, but why do they do that? What is wrong with the TEXTUS RECEPTUS, the Received Text that was used to translate the KJV?

It doesn't bother me that God created evil, in fact I appreciate Him even more. Because He is my God, the soveriegn God, the Almighty who created everything. I am apart of His plan, I am in the centre of His divine perfection, I am the apple of His eye. There are many sides to God that we cannot see, He is a jealous God! He is a God that can get angry. He has His likes and dislikes. Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (oh yes, another bad translation)

Let us think about these things,

Karl ;-)

 2005/3/27 17:01
AgesofWar
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Joined: 2003/5/24
Posts: 138
Chicago IL USA

 Re:

One more time for you guys that might of skiped it

GOD did not create Evil in the sence that He Created the Satan, No he created a being with free will, namly Lucifer.

That Being(Lucifer) made a choice as did Adam.
Namly to Sin and birthed into exsitance Evil.

John 8:42-44

42 Jesus said to them“If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and am here; I did not come on my own, but he sent me.43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot bear to hear my word.44 You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

Note Here that JESUS says that Satan is the Father of Lies Not God

In Christ Michael


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Michael

 2005/3/27 19:05Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Hi Karl,

Quote:
Ok, Mr MacArther says in the same paragraph in the above quote that evil can't be created, yet in the same breath it came into existance in the fall of the Angels.

Does that make sense to anyone?



It makes perfect sense if you understand that the nature of evil is the absence of good. Evil could never exist if God were the only one to exist because He cannot change. Creation, however, and this is the point you seem to be missing, [i]can[/i] change and therefore has the potential to change for the worse. The power of contrary choice is the essence of free will. God could not bring evil into existence because he'll never change and in him is no darkness at all, but His creation can and has fallen, that change to the lack of good has brought about evil.

That God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden did not mean that He had created evil but that in creating rational beings the possibility did exist. The potential for evil was not in God [i]but in His creatures[/i], therefore they were warned and tested. Because they could not understand the potential that was in them does not establish in the fall narative that God created evil.

Quote:
"Behold the lamb of God that was slain BEFORE the foundation of the world".



I take it you're quoting Rev. 13:8 which reads:

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Here's Barnes notes on this verse:

Quote:
"The meaning here is, not that he was actually put to death “from the foundation of the world,” but that the intention to give him for a sacrifice was formed then, and that it was so certain that it might be spoken of as actually then occurring."



I'm interested in how you conceive that this verse proves Adam and Eve did not have a free will. The foreknowledge of God does not unhinge the actual choices of men.


Quote:
So why don't we just throw the KJV bible out, it's not safe to read because it is poor in translation.



Oh karl, I'm sure this is not an intentional straw man but that you are truely sincere in this.;-) The truth is, however, that MacArthur was not referring only to the KJV, but many, many others: Darby, YLT, ASV, Webster's...ect, etc. all translate Isa. 45:7 basically the same.

In our large western vocabulary we have shortened the semantic range of many words considerably. Therefore the need to explain what is meant in the context of the text.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/3/27 20:46Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Was the eternal purpose a contingency plan?

Ephesians 3: 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Would the manifold wisdom of God have be demonstrable without the presence of evil? The eternal purpose being that which was conceived before creation of both the spiritual and the physical world.


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/3/27 21:13Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re: Was the eternal purpose a contingency plan?

Hi Jimm,

In a mysterious way I believe that God decreed that evil would come into existence for this very reason.

Here is the link once again to the rest of the article I quoted. I think it will answer your question thouroughly. I would have posted the whole thing but it's really long.

[url=http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-235.htm]The Origin of Evil[/url]


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/3/27 21:19Profile





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