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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Did God create evil?

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iHilam
Member



Joined: 2004/2/29
Posts: 22
Florida

 Did God create evil?

Curious about the opinions on this scripture?

Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


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Ken

 2005/3/26 23:43Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re: Did God create evil?

This passage of scripture is Hebrew poetry and is written in parrallelisms; therefore, the meaning of evil is found in its counterpart "peace". Evil here is not moral evil or sin, but the lack of peace. Here is what Barnes notes says about this part of the passage:

Quote:
[b]I make peace[/b] - I hush the contending passions of mankind; I dispose to peace, and prevent wars when I choose - a passage which proves that the most violent passions are under his control. No passions are more uncontrollable than those which lead to wars; and nowhere is there a more striking display of the Omnipotence of God than in his power to repress the pride, ambition, and spirit of revenge of conquerors and kings:
Which stilleth the noise of the seas,
The noise of their waves,
And the tumult of the people.
Psa_65:7

[b]And create evil[/b] - The parallelism here shows that this is not to be understood in the sense of all evil, but of that which is the opposite of peace and prosperity. That is, God directs judgments, disappointments, trials, and calamities; he has power to suffer the mad passions of people to rage, and to afflict nations with war; he presides over adverse as well as prosperous events. The passage does not prove that God is the author of moral evil, or sin, and such a sentiment is abhorrent to the general strain of the Bible, and to all just views of the character of a holy God.



In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/3/26 23:55Profile
iHilam
Member



Joined: 2004/2/29
Posts: 22
Florida

 Re:

I agree that this verse does not mean that God created moral evil. But is an interesting verse and can lead to growing pains if not well researched. If you know what I mean? The verse popped in my head when reading some of the post on the TNIV thread. So I decided to get some views from those who are familiar with this verse.

In Christ,
iHilam


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Ken

 2005/3/27 0:03Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

As far as I can remember, this topic has not been discussed on SI which is kinda surprising. There is a group among Calvinists that do believe that God created evil and sin, but even most calvinists think this is repugnant.


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/3/27 0:14Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: Did God create evil?

I would also be interested in watching a thread on this subject. I've read alot of theories but have never really had a settling of the matter in my heart.


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D.Miller

 2005/3/27 0:56Profile









 God did NOT create sin!

Where did sin come from?

Isaiah 14:12-15 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." KJV

Sin did not exist at all until Lucifer rebelled and turned against God. It is plain that Lucifer had knowledge and a free will that included the ability to make a moral choice. The only reason why sin exists is because Lucifer created it by freely making a wrong moral choice.

Did God create sin?

No!! God created an angel that had the ability to make a moral choice. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the way God created Lucifer. God was not responsible for what Lucifer freely chose to do. Lucifer was created with the ability to create his own moral character. To put it simply, Lucifer created his own sin out of his free will.

God cannot be responsible for any being's free moral choice.

Remember, sin or holiness cannot exist without knowledge and a free will that includes the ability to make a moral choice.

 2005/3/27 6:22
iHilam
Member



Joined: 2004/2/29
Posts: 22
Florida

 Re: God did NOT create sin!

I guess the best way in my head to describe the existance of evil is this.

Evil was not something that was create. Evil is simply a word used to describe the absence of God. As darkness is a word used to describe the absence of light. darkness was not created nor was evil. I hope you can grasp the depth of what I'm trying to convey. Lucifer decided to seperate himself from God. Thus the word used to describe this seperation is evil.

In Christ,
iHilam


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Ken

 2005/3/27 8:56Profile
dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re: Did God create evil?

The word translated as "evil" could be translated 'calamity' - without losing the sense of what is meant.

If one cannot think outside the human perspective, one is more likely to profess that God did not create evil - because if a human (or angel) created evil, there would be a moral responsibility for that action.

If on the other hand, one does not tether God with the same limitations of man, that is, if one's God is 'big enough' - then they can say that God is -truly- sovereign. They can say that God "pro-created" evil, in the sense that God had full knowledge of what would happen, yet, having given Satan free will, God would not be morally responsible for Satan's choices - even if God (dare I say it) predestined those same choices.

A useful parallel is our own procreation. I know that my children will sin. I knew this even before my wife and I had children. Does this make me morally responsible for having children who sin? God says no. -Because- they are free to sin, their sin becomes their own responsibility and I am not morally at fault even though I had complete and utter knowledge before hand that they would sin.

There are many Christians who (imagining they are championing God's character) will fight the notion of God 'creating evil' tooth and nail. Because they understand that God is not evil, nor does God fellowship with evil, etc, etc. But having an incomplete understanding of the relationship between free will and moral responsibility - they cannot fathom how God can create a sinner and be without blame for doing so.

Whatever the case, topics such as these present great opportunities for zealously 'majoring in the minors.'

I say that God -did- create evil. But I do not imply by that that God sinned, or that God could sin, or that God is evil, or that God could be evil, or that God could have anything to do with evil, or that God does not HATE sin. I am sure, however, that some who disagree with my understanding will charge me with some slur against God, but I can say with sincerity, I love God, and believe it would be a greater slur to imagine that God was a helpless and powerless spectator in seeing Satan Fall. My God is sovereign in practice and not just in name.

Dan
/\/
\/\


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Daniel van de Laar

 2005/3/27 9:09Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: Good Point iHiLam

Nice way to look at it.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/3/27 9:10Profile
AgesofWar
Member



Joined: 2003/5/24
Posts: 138
Chicago IL USA

 Re:

GOD did not create Evil in the sence that He Created the Satan, No he created a being with free will, namly Lucifer.

That Being(Lucifer) made a choice as did Adam.
Namly to Sin and birthed into exsitance Evil.

John 8:42-44

42 Jesus said to them[b][color=FF0000]“If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and am here; I did not come on my own, but he sent me.[/color][/b][b][color=FF0000]43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot bear to hear my word.[/color][/b][b][color=FF0000]44 You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies.[/color][/b]

Note Here that JESUS says that Satan is the Father of Lies [b]Not God[/b]

In Christ Michael


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Michael

 2005/3/27 9:32Profile





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