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Discussion Forum : General Topics : What is the difference between the old covenant vs. the new covenant.

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 Re: to "just-in"....and my apology to brother Paul West

Quote:
to "just-in"....and my apology to brother Paul West
by HezWelling on 2013/11/4 13:33:36

I acknowledge any sinful and wrong hearted words written to my beloved brother Paul (West)....for which I beg his forgiveness.....i'm so terribly sorry.

"just in"
you asked

Quote:
What exactly is the problem, Neil?



better men than me, specifically Michael Brown can tell you what my problem slash grief is.....here, prayerfully listen to brother Michael speak forth,
"A Baptism of Tears for Israel"
http://askdrbrown.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/A-Baptism-of-Tears-for-Israel.mp3

he's a Jew , like me, who follows Jesus....and for the prior 10 years following Messiah, I paid little attention to "church" history, being CONSUMED with love of the Word, I stay in the Bible, no commentaries....then I started to learn of 1700 years of what happened to my people, the Jews...I was NEVER an "ethnic" or "secular" Jew...I might have sunk my teeth into the bitter fruit of sin for a season, but His Hand was always on me, since I was a 7 year old in the synagogue.

then I read of "church history", and its a struggle to contain my inner "King David"...I gotta be honest...the way things are going in America today?

I have one hand on my passport...ready...to claim the "Law of Return" and move BACK to Israel.....but deny Messiah?.....never...

I say all this in love, and especially to my beloved Paul, n.



Hi Neil,

I certainly understand where you are coming from having been a student of Church History for over 30 years. It is a gross understatement to say that the History of the Church is sobering, because it is more than that. It is shocking, repulsive and glorious all in one. It is the worst and best displays of men, it is sorrowful yet hopeful.

I have found that the further back in history that you go, the farther into the future you can see (and understand).

God bless you, brother.

 2013/11/5 0:44
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

This while conversation is profoundly important, deserving of respectful sharing of ideas and perspectives. Speaking for myself, I'll admit there are two basic but conflicting narratives of the cross at work in my own theology.

The first is that the death and ressurection of Christ is another chapter in the bibles unfolding revelation to mankind. In this view, the Gospel is a fullfillment of all the promises given to the prophets, and the Church is the fulfillment of Judaism. Paul's conversion involved having his errant theology corrected, and his identity as a Jew more fully realized. Now everythg promised in the Old Testament has become fulfilled.

The second is that the cross is an absolute rupture with everything that has come before it in the bible. In this view, the Gospel seems irreconcilable with the religious, political, and social patterns of the Old Testament. Paul's conversion required that his theology and identity as a Jew was shattered. Here the Gospels only kinship to the Old Testament is that it resonates with the prophets whose entire ministry was rooted in a critique of Israel's faithless failings, as well as faith in a coming Messiah.

I still have not found a way to dismiss either of these narritives completely, or two bring them together in my own mind, though I do think they can harmonize at times.

I'm only sharing this to offer that it is hard for me to be harsh towards my brothers and sisters as they wrestle with similar conflicts among one another that I have in myself.

Blessings,

Mike


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Mike Compton

 2013/11/5 2:21Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Going back to PaulWest question...
Dear brother, I think we are slightly talking past each other. Can you agree that Paul and Peter had something greater than Elijah and all the rest of the OT prophets and kings had?

Continuing on the first precept that God preappoints men in chosen generations for a particular work of God in that generation...

The power and spirit of the ministry of Elijah has it's work centered in this verse...


Jhn 16:8
“And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:


The work of Elijah is to convict the world of sin. How else would one know that he is in need of a Savior. But the work of the Spirit is not complete is it? What must follow is the imparting of righteousness to those who hear and do according to what they hear. So this is the distinction that divides the ministry of Elijah and that of Isaiah, Paul, and still to come the 1000 year reign of Christ.

In Isaiah the Scriptures teach that Christ was preforming this ministry prior to the Babylonian captivity...

Isa 48:16
“Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Havefn sent Me.”

Isa 48:17
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

Isa 48:18
Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Jesus says to His disciples...

Jhn 14:21
“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Why is the ministry which leads one to Christ more important than the ministry of Elijah?


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Jeff Marshalek

 2013/11/5 6:53Profile
a-servant
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Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

Quote “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

The greatest "mirage of the mind" when talking about OT vs NT covenants is that conviction, that once a written word of God described as 'law' changes from letter to spirit it vanishes.

Before, we would know its content. Now, we don't. Every attempt to locate its substance would be a return to the letter. We don't want that, we are living in the spirit now.

God's laws didn't simply change location by writing them on the heart, they changed their very substance and meanings. What was specific content before, might be totally different content now, or no content at all. We cannot really tell for sure, as 'the spirit nature of it' obscures everything. Written documents you can evaluate with your mind, spiritual things you have to evaluate spirtually.

What reminds me of being in the hippy movement at the age of 16, going to Haight Ashbury and experiencing very spiritual things. It took me a few years and stomache upsetting research of its Laurel Canyon origin to realize that this spirituality was actually sensuality. Based on the feelings you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Based on the popular theology of the last 50 years and its most popular teachers you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. It's much easier to get "slain in the spirit" and just think of that as final answer and reality, simply because it works. As does hypnosis and mesmerism by the way. And that's why personal experience verifies nothing, the Word of God does.

That is why The Holy Spirit and obedience to our Lord Jesus Christ are in a closed unity, that is how we evaluate spiritual things spirtually:

Acts 5:31  Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

note: given to them that obey him, who is him? The Lord Jesus Christ [Him hath God exalted Acts 5:31]

 2013/11/5 7:50Profile
Almond
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Joined: 2005/4/6
Posts: 13


 Re:


Brethern,

I am not apologizing to Paulwest, I meant what I said:

So, what you are saying is that Faith without Works is dead. And to the individual who dare's to take God's word out of context therefor omitting the Spirit of God, grace and peace.

"Sigh"...

 2013/11/5 9:10Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Why is the ministry which leads one to Christ more important than the ministry of Elijah?

Jhn 16:8
“And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Jhn 16:9
“of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

Jhn 16:10
“of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;

The ministry of Elijah, through the work of the Spirit will convict those who have not known Christ. This ministry is the work of God to bring the individual to the cross of Christ. The sacrifice of the Lamb has reconciled us to the Father. Yet, there is according to the Scripture above a second work of the Holy Spirit.

Jhn 16:10 "of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more."

In this verse, there are two points. First, the Helper will take the place of Jesus because He will soon depart from them. They will see Him no more. The Helper is to continue the work that Jesus started in the disciples. Note again, the first work of the spirit is to convict the world, then Jesus changes the focus to those He is at this moment teaching.

Jhn 16:12
“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

Jhn 16:13
“However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

Jhn 16:14
“He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.


The above three verses are commentary on "of righteousness" found in verse 10.

If one only has the baptism of John what work is not taking place in that individuals life?


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Jeff Marshalek

 2013/11/5 21:03Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

If one only has the baptism of John what work is not taking place in that individuals life?

Isa 48:17
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

Isa 48:18
Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.


Because one does not heed, one will have no peace because he has not walked with his Savior. He has refused to be taught the truth that sets one free from the ways of Satan.




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Jeff Marshalek

 2013/11/6 6:59Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:


John 13:
7 Jesus answered and said to him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.”

8 Peter said to Him, “You shall never wash my feet!”

Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”

9 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!”

10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”


The above section of Scripture is commentary on 'continued' work of Jesus in His disciples once He ascended back to His Father. Again, the baptism of John speaks to the reconciled position of the disciple. Please note what Jesus says...

Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”


Likewise consider this parable...

Matthew 12
43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”


Please note, "he finds it empty,"

What has not taken place after the baptism of John?


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Jeff Marshalek

 2013/11/6 15:06Profile
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Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

mmmh! - how unusual - just did talk with my wife about Matt 12

this parable just got real in her life last night, a girl fell unconscious at home after been ministered to that afternoon. So my wife went there again at night being called for help together with two other ladies. They thought of it as a sudden illness, so they took care of it with oil, massage and prayer.

Until that girl suddenly started shouting with a deep voice: "I will not let her go, she belongs to me" while rolling her eyes and exposing an unusual long tongue. She screamed so loud that all the neighbours got on the street and asked if they could help. My wife started to address the spirit directly, what was a first in her life experience, and commanded him to leave in the name of Jesus. What he refused, so they kept on praying for over an hour, until he suddenly said "it's getting so hot in here, it's getting so hot in here" and was gone. The girl woke up and asked what happened. Half of the neighbourhood came by and heard a teaching about the power of Jesus to command unclean spirits.

Sorry to interrupt your flow, I just listented to that report and said she should go back there today, the spirit promised not to come back, but his testimony is questionable, he might have friends. The girl is catholic and now is the time for her to put her faith in Jesus Christ.

 2013/11/6 21:30Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Isa 48:17
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

As commentary on the above verse...

Rom 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Rom 5:10
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.


Paul identifies the work of the two ministries of the Spirit. First we have been reconciled, justified, by His blood. Secondly, and Paul emphasizes this point as being the most important, "we shall be saved from wrath through Him" and "we shall be saved by His life." A little further down in this section of Scripture Paul writes this...

Rom 5:17
For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

"Much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." Those who receive an abundance of grace will be saved from wrath and will understand the gift of righteousness which is His Life.

Isa 48:17
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

Mat 11:28
“Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Mat 11:29
“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Mat 11:30
“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

If you don't learn from Him your burden will only increase.


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2013/11/7 6:59Profile





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