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a-servant
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Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:3

What righteousness?

Romans 4:13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

the righteousness of faith

Romans 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Romans 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Galatians 5:5  For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Ephesians 5:9  (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

 2013/10/30 4:05Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re: really?

Quote:
To pit one testament and one covanent against each other is like pitting the begining of a good book to the end of it. Though we can jump to its last pages, what a great loss that comes from missing the beauty of what comes before it.



There is nothing wrong in comparing one Covenant with another. The writer of Hebrews did that when he called New Covenant a better covenant (comparative speech).

Hebrews 8-6:- But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

May be the writer of Hebrews lack wisdom? Clearly New covenant is better compared to old Covenant. Hebrews 8-13 says that the Old Covenant is now obsolete. Which means God still honors this covenant but it is not preferred to be observed. In programming language when we come up with a new version of an existing service, we mark the existing version obsolete. Anyone calling the existing service will still work but it is not preferred to be used for a newly written program. Anytime we can stop the support of such obsolete service.

Also if someone meditates seriously on Hebrews 8 they will understand that new Covenant is not lawlessness. Here God writes his laws into our heart (verse 10). Who knows if it is less than or greater than 611. But one thing that we know is these laws are way higher standard than the laws written on stones. Here even Anger is considered as murder, lustful eyes are considered as adultery. But they are lighter and not a burden because God himself works with us to keep them. That is why I said Amen to the post of moderator when he said OT is 'Thou shall' (you do it alone) and NT is 'I will' ( I will work with you). In New Covenant, God will work with us to make the burden lighter but not the standard lighter. The standard is raised way higher in New covenant.

Brother Zac Poonen has this illustration to differentiate life under law and life under grace. Under Law is like a women who is married to a husband who is very strict about the services that she should do to him. He wants breakfast sharp at 8 AM, dinner at this time etc. He never helps her with anything and always accuses her of her shortcomings. But when this women dies (after born again) and gets married to grace, it is like living with a husband who again is very strict but he is willing to sit and work with her to prepare the breakfast, lunch etc. This way her burden now is light and she is able to achieve a higher standard as a wife.

If a man living under Old Covenant (Jew for instance) has better standard than me in terms of Holiness or family relationship or Godliness etc then my Christianity is worth big Zero.


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Sreeram

 2013/10/30 5:11Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

by a-servant wrote:

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:3"

Yes, it is through God's work to establish faith in Him, that we are declared righteous. But in the testimony given to us in Scripture, was Abram declared righteous when he obeyed God's command to leave his country? Another way to ask this, according to the process of time, how many years later did God establish His covenant with Abram?


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Jeff Marshalek

 2013/10/30 6:39Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Sree writes:

"Also if someone meditates seriously on Hebrews 8 they will understand that new Covenant is not lawlessness. Here God writes his laws into our heart (verse 10)."


How does God, according to Scripture, write His laws into our heart?


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Jeff Marshalek

 2013/10/30 6:41Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

"how many years later did God establish His covenant with Abram?"

Is that of vital importance? What has time to do with it...

Another way to ask this: Did God tell us when He himself first made this decision to aprove of Abraham's response?

If so, tell us where and when.

The other question is even more interesting:

"How does God, according to Scripture, write His laws into our heart?"

That's a very good question. I'll go one futher: And how would you see the relationship of the
Holy Spirit that interacts [in what way?] with His laws that are written into our heart?

 2013/10/30 8:49Profile









 Re:

"How does God, according to Scripture, write His laws into our heart?"

He gives us a transplant. Takes out the stony heart and gives us His heart, His Spirit. "Christ in you, the hope of glory".

 2013/10/30 10:12
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re: The transplant

God may do the transplant, but we have to lie down on the operating table...

Ezekiel 18:31 ...get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why should you die O house of Israel?


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Tom Cameron

 2013/10/30 12:32Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Another thing to consider:

The Old Covenant was made between Israel and God. Not between someone like myself, who happens ethnically to be a non-Jew, and Yahweh. So this means even if there were no New Covenant, I am not bound by the Sabbath laws, the levitical tithe, etc. Paul never in his epistles alluded to such with the gentile believers of the churches in Greece. This, of course, is why in the New Testament you will not read the of the 10% ceremonial tithe, Sabbath observance and dietery laws being imposed upon gentiles or any of the 600-plus commands governing sacrifices and grain offerings and the like which were given to Moses and the Hebrew priests on the mountain.

They who were being adopted into the family of God found themselves instead situated under a much better covenant, a "New" Covenant, of which Christ Jesus - and not Moses - was the New Mediator, and Who rendered both Jew and Gentile co-inheritors of the promise. The written commands of the inferior Old Covenant were now obsolete (having served its purpose as a "shadow" schoolteacher, keeping the immature children in check through spoonfed laws and regulations and shalts and shalt nots), and which was absolutely fulfilled through Christ's sinless obedience and Final Sacrifice, thus unlocking the old temple door (i.e. veil) and rendering the former covenantal way legally invalid for entrance.

Enter now the "New" way. God sends the Holy Spirit into the hearts of His children to empower them, to "cause" them to walk in His statues in a living way. This is accomplished through grace; a reality which was totally foreign to even the most stalwart, law-abiding Jew. No matter how faithfully he tithed under the obsolete covenant, no matter how many goats and lambs he slaughtered, no matter how many necks of turledoves he wrung he could never be set free from the power of sin. He could only experience forgiveness and the bandaid covering of the penalty via the blood of beasts. This is the old and inferior, Christ-fulfilled and subsequently-obsolete Covenant. The inferior covenant that could require your dear child be put to death for gathering sticks on a Saturday, or your daughter to be burnt alive for losing her virginity prior to her wedding night.

These "punishments" were inaugurated to keep the unruly schoolchildren (with disobedience in their nature) in check through fear, not unlike the government today threatening very lengthy prison sentences for child molesters and money counterfeitors. If you're caught smuggling drugs in China, they shoot you - this is exactly the same principle we find in the Old Covenant, only in Ancient Israel punishment was theocratically inforced, whereas in China it is communistically. But in both situations, neither the communistic law of China, nor the Mosaic law in Israel had the power to intrinsically "cause" a change in a man or woman's nature to not smuggle drugs or fornicate, not because of fear of reprisal, but out of love for the lawgiver.

This is the essence of the New Covenant. God Himself reanimates the spirit (dead under the supression of the Old Covenant, with the will to sin simply chained by the dread of reciprocal punishment) and creates a "New Man" who desires to do the will of God, even if there were no punishment for fornication or drug smuggling. The man or woman under the New Covenant naturally desires to walk and live and have all their being in the perfect fulfillment of God's pleasure.




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Paul Frederick West

 2013/10/30 13:20Profile









 Paul

if you only KNEW how wrong you are:

Quote:
This is accomplished through grace; a reality which was totally foreign to even the most stalwart, law-abiding Jew.



really?....How many "stalwart" Jews do you know?....even the word "stalwart" I wouldn't use to describe anyone who loves God.

Have you REALLY tried to walk out, "evangelize" ANY non-secular Jew?...granted IT's TOUGH, but its "tough", because the hellish headwinds of 1700 years of 'church history' in how the Jews have been treated by the "church"....when I say 1700 years, I refer to when satan got up in Constantine, and that scarlet whore of rome was birthed....and hatred of Jews was CODIFIED by the very "priests" of this counterfeit church.....and you must remember that the roman institution was the only game in town until the 1500's....until Luther and Protestantism. Luther had some mad love for the Jews, until he got old and cranky, and then wrote his love letter to the church.."On Jews and their lies"...exhorting the faithful, to burn synagogues down.

so it really begs the question, WHEN has the "essence" of the New Covenant been really shown to these
Quote:
unruly schoolchildren (with disobedience in their nature)



that you, ingrafted vine so arrogantly dismiss?

instead of me taking this further, you ever read, "Our Hands Are Stained with Blood?" by Michael Brown, another Jew who follows Jesus...he's much smarter than I...here's a preview from google books if you're interested:(you might want to preview the chapter; "A Terrible Tragic Past"


http://books.google.com/books?id=Y2PseStkG3sC&lpg=PR1&pg=PA13#v=onepage&q&f=false

give this chapter a read....chores call, see ya.

 2013/10/30 15:27
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re: Paul

Quote:
if you only KNEW how wrong you are


Can you please show me where scripturally?

Quote:
How many "stalwart" Jews do you know?


Not sure what this has to do with the topic, but to answer your question I grew up on Long Island, and my best friends were and still are all Jewish. I'll be willing to bet I've been to more Bar Mitzvahs than you! My adoptive mother is a Hungarian Jew (although she is now steeped in Kabbalah). My best friend whom Ive known since the 4th grade is Jewish (his mother is like my second mother). My wife is a Shephardic Jew. So, please, it would do you well not to assume certain things. I try to weigh every sinlge word I type here.

That said, I didn't know you had such a problem with the word "stalwart". I had no idea it held negative connotations when applied religiously - in fact, I assumed it meant the opposite: firm, resolute, morally strong. Please correct me if I am wrong brother.

Quote:
that you, ingrafted vine so arrogantly dismiss

Neil, are these words really necessary? Couldn't you give me the benefit of the doubt and simply ask me to elaborate on what I said? I meant no disrespect.

Quote:
unruly schoolchildren (with disobedience in their nature)


This was inferential to Paul's "the law is the schoolmaster" statement in Galatians, with rules in place for "unruly" children (for why else are rules given and enforced). I will ask you to please not turn this discussion into an antisemetic tirade. Unless, of course, you wish to implicate Paul the Apostle. But that would be better left for another thread. Let's try to stick to the difference between the covenants.

Thank you dear brother.




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Paul Frederick West

 2013/10/30 19:01Profile





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