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 Re:

Hi proudpapa. I did not move from Europe, I moved from Scotland, a country that is proud to be the home of the brave and those who love freedom. Scotland has been in the freedom business for almost 1000 years, long before America was even discovered by the Europeans.

I moved to the States because my wife originally came from Kansas, her father was stationed at the Nuclear Submarine base in Scotland. Can I dare to ask why you want to know? Or should I guess ? :) My main point was that, by coming from a different country, I am not as emotionally attached to the history of America as Americans are. I was born again here which is more important obviously than my physical birth. I have a deep love for this country and especially the Christians of this country. Yet, and I have said this for years, there is a dark shadow of nationalism that clouds many Christians viewpoint. It is the most easily manipulated of all the emotions in my view. It has been used and abused by scoundrels and evil men down through the ages.

Again, I understand nationalism as well as anyone, in fact I would argue, coming from a fiercely nationalistic country like Scotland, that I may have a greater understanding of a fierce nationalistic spirit. It is most definately of the flesh, nationalism does not exist in the realms of the Spirit. God loved the whole world and He has called His children to be one people and to be witness in whatever land they happened to be born. We are , at best, sojourners here, pilgrims simply passing through as Ambassadors of another kingdom. I would like you to imagine this scenario. America declares war on Scotland. Should I go home, join the Scottish army, meet you on the battle-field and kill you? No, I would not, I would rather be killed and be a witness for Jesus as I was killed...........bro Frank

 2013/10/9 23:03
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re: Was the American revolution sanctioned by God?

In military discussions, people are warned not to use Israeli operations for valuable military tactical training. Their anecdotal history of military moves is full of strange turns of circumstance to their favor like the handful of WWII German planes discovered in Eastern Europe, duct taped together, piloted by smuggled in American pilots, and used to stop cold a well equipped Egyption force of over 10,000 men in 1948 at the birth of that nation.

Or another incident where Israeli tanks were caught between an overwhelming force and a sand covered mine field. They were able to retreat when a freak wind came through and whisked away the sand exposing the mines.

George Washington's multiple defeats and one squeaky victory aided by a fortuitous fog turned the tide for the rag-tag colonial forces, allowing the final victory that birthed the American nation. There is reason to believe that God was there in answer to deep groaning prayer.

And just as David recounts over and over in the Psalms, God is somehow pleased to help those who call upon Him in times of stress and even physical battle.

The people of today's America are most easily likened to the ancient Israelites who departed from former glory and went after idols. The idols of today may have more bells and whistles and require regular charging, but in the larger sense they are no different- just stuff that keeps people from the pursuit of God.

And now comes the judgement. The love of sin in America has reached epidemic proportions, and the trajectory into socialist slavery is clearly charted. The eagle has its talons in a painful grip and the prey is learning the very hard lesson of what it means to cast off moral restraint and wander aimlessly into the hunting grounds.

The citizens are shrieking in horror as they open the envelopes of their new "healthcare system" and begin to realize that they have been completely duped. It is scary ugly to watch, but it is exactly what they voted for.

Frankly, I do not know where I may be forced to draw my own red line for the honor of the Name of the One I serve. But my prayer is that I might know and stand at the proper time. I also know that the spirit driving the current plunge into full-on dictatorship doesn't like anything I believe in.

By the way, Appolus, I share genetically some of that Scottish heritage with you- though I never actually lived there. (Visited in 1961...)

I don't tell this to everyone, though. I don't like being blamed for the world's worst musical instrument- the bagpipe, or the worst male fashion item- the kilt.


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2013/10/9 23:57Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi appolus

RE: ///I did not move from Europe, I moved from Scotland///

I thought I understood that you moved from england and before that scotland, I was of the thought that they where located on the continent of Europe

RE: ///Can I dare to ask why you want to know?///

Curiosity was why I asked , To assume that their was any malice with my asking, perhaps a little, but not much as you might guess, being well aware that their is not a great amount to gain by moving from Scotland or England to America as far as freedom is concerned.

But if you consider my curiosity of tying to understand why you would choose to move to a country that you seem to be so vocally critical of its foundation and system, as malice than I suppose you can judge it as so.

My assumption after I asked and before you responded was a spouse, it was the only thing I could think of that fit the box.

As far as your scenario of fighting each other in the battlefield,
brother I would ask what have I ever written that gave the impression that I indorse Christians in the battle -field ?

Brother appolus I do greatly apperciate your answering of my direct question to you.

God Bless you dear brother!



 2013/10/10 0:16Profile
Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 600
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re: Submission to Government

This is an interesting topic that I have dealt with on a continual basis for many years. The same Bible that says:

1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

also says:

1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

and yet that writer himself said:

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I have personally met many God fearing God loving Christians living in the USA contrary to the laws of the USA because they simply could not "provide for their own" in the countries from whence they came and were left with no other alternative than to migrate here and work whatever low paying wearisome job they could to be able to send something back home to provide for their families.

Some Americans who have visited their countries say: "oh they can survive, they just want to live more wealthy"... (which is true of some) but if the same Americans had the communication skills to communicate with some of them, they would not jump so quickly to that conclusion.

The horror stories of the life risking trip itself are an indication to me that things must be quite bad where they come from. I have had to console a young man over the phone whose girlfriend slipped while trying to jump on the train, lost both legs and bled to death. I've seen many pictures of limbless train mounting victims. I've heard them tell of getting kidnapped and watching people get their fingers cut off joint by joint until they would give a family member's phone number, and if that number produced no money, they were shot in the back of the head and killed. Many have told me of rattlesnakes and thirst, so intense that they gladly drank from a cow's drinking hole, and many other dangers along the way.

Some have told me of people in their villages literally dying of hunger in times of drought. Many struggle to communicate with me in Spanish because their native language is an Indian dialect. After generations of poverty in their native countries many having grown up with no shoes to wear and most of them with little education, they make the dangerous journey to better the situation for their families.

98% of them are direct descendants of the native Americans who traveled these continents freely until the Europeans came and invaded their territory. My ancestors broke most of their tribal laws (and as has already been noted) broke the laws of England in order to set up the governments and laws that now rule.

Knowing what I know, how can I possible urge them to disregard God's Word and DO NOT "provide for their own" in an effort to obey border laws that have needed a revamping for several decades?

It saddens me to hear smug American Christians hypocritically condemn them when if they were in the same situation, they would most certainly have done the same exact thing. We have so many twisted laws now (and the number daily grows) that MOST Americans break EPA, OSHA and traffic laws on a daily basis just to survive and yet they would condemn that Guatemalan Quiché Indian who crossed the border without proper authorization.

If the EPA prohibited use of a really good well on your property, and your children were dying of thirst, would you give them to drink from the prohibited well, or would you let them die in compliance with the EPA?

By the way, if you are working someone at heights above 6 feet without a guard rail, or safety net, they must have a personal fall arrest system/safety harness or you are breaking OSHA laws.


_________________
Michael Strickland

 2013/10/10 2:05Profile
Beige
Member



Joined: 2012/7/14
Posts: 54


 Re:

Well I am absolutely certain that we have forgotten some of the basic tenants of scripture. In the past the United States of America has enjoyed the blessings of God because the people of the United States believed themselves to be responsible to listen to and to obey the word of God. And never in the history of the world has there been a nation so blessed of God as has been the United States of America.
However consider the following scripture for a moment:
Deu 28:2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
If an immigrant should valiantly enter the United States of America and cherish the very same principles that caused our country to be blessed -- I salute him or her. But, if a person enters our country simply to partake of "prosperity" without the commitment to those self same values that were the roots of the tree that produced the prosperity than that person is motivated by lust and greed and God in no part of scripture is obligated to bless that person -- It matters very little if I take care of my own or even if I "take care" of a multitude if that provision is the fruit of sin.
We have already been awash with the prosperity preachers that have forsaken the basic foundation of real wealth and prosperity -- That of TRUE repentance and a willingness to obey the Lord Jesus Christ and to follow Him regardless of whether or not we are born into affluence in the city of New York or born into poverty in a village in Central America. We do not need to see again a false teaching develop stating that the end justifies the means: To say that it is valid to circumvent the laws of the United States and the various individual states because a party's family may need to eat better is simply situational ethics and there is no valid foundation for it in scripture.
And I am not sure which American Christians the writer refers in a condemning manner when he or she states:
"It saddens me to hear smug American Christians hypocritically condemn them when if they were in the same situation, they would most certainly have done the same exact thing. We have so many twisted laws now (and the number daily grows) that MOST Americans break EPA, OSHA and traffic laws on a daily basis just to survive and yet they would condemn that Guatemalan Quiché Indian who crossed the border without proper authorization."
Are you referring to the millions of American Christians who have donated millions and millions of dollars to the missionary efforts that have been sent to every third world country on the face of the planet?
No let us defer to the scriptures above once again and remember some of the things God does allow judgement for; even upon entire cultures. The curses are a direct result of living under judgement which arises as a direct result to sins such as idolatry, human sacrifice, etc... Which have been and sometimes are even now sins common in many third world countries. And what native American tribe do you refer to as being supplanted -- Was it a native American tribe that did not have a local "Witch Doctor"? Now, please let us reflect upon the multitude of examples we have in scripture wherein the spiritual applications of people choosing to worship and follow the one true God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob and those who chose to worship and follow all the other demi-gods of the nether world -- which cultures were blessed? Another thing I find very interesting is the scripture that alludes to one of the curses of not obeying God will be that the foreigner in our midst shall have rule over us.
The blessings, prosperity and miracles of God are not limited by national borders. God does and will always cross man's borders to bestow His blessings upon His people. I would suggest to you that the conditions in many third world countries are a direct result of the spiritual laws which all men are subject to. And, in that respect "You can take the boy out of the country, but you can not take the country out of the boy." And, I do not think we need to worry ourselves too much about an illegal alien's presence in the United States as it appears to me that the United States will herself be, and very soon, a third world country. But, let us pray that this does not happen. Let us pray that multitudes of people in all nations will repent and follow Jesus Christ. Through those acts of obedience we pray that many people, in many nations will walk in and enjoy the blessings of God and not to be partakers in the curses.

 2013/10/10 4:53Profile
lovejt
Member



Joined: 2005/11/5
Posts: 121


 Re: Submission to Government

Havok: Based on what you have said and described, i encourage you to speak whatever God puts on your heart next meeting and not worry about 'backlashes' or 'resolutions'. Speak the Word boldfully. If we stand on the Word of God, we have an eternal stance. If we stand on other things, they will fall. You could also bring up 2 Peter 2 where it speaks of those who despise authority and speak evil of dignitaries. Those same people are in the same light as false prophets/teachers (earlier verses).


_________________
james

 2013/10/10 9:41Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: I don't tell this to everyone, though. I don't like being blamed for the world's worst musical instrument- the bagpipe, or the worst male fashion item- the kilt.

The hairs on my body stand up straight when I hear the pipes playing. As for the kilt, I don't like to wear it as it is a bit itchy, but my wife always asks me to wear it for weddings as she likes to see me dressed in it.

Quote: I understand nationalism as well as anyone, in fact I would argue, coming from a fiercely nationalistic country like Scotland, that I may have a greater understanding of a fierce nationalistic spirit.

It's a terrible curse to be taught from a young age to be a proud Scot and to hate another group of people, the English, then on top of that the Cathoilc-Prodestant rivalry. Nationalism (patriotism)and sectarianism stirs very strong emotions inside men.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/10/10 12:05Profile









 Re:

I have always found it interesting that (Christian) men quote the OT when they want to bear arms against other men, yet feign to live in the NT where the Early Church never resisted the "powers" with carnal weapons.

Having been born-again, a foundational transformation should have taken place that wrenches one from the pride of nationalism into the Kingdom of God. If anyone should have had great pride of nationalism, it would have been Jesus Christ, followed by Paul. The lineage of Jesus goes back through some of the greatest men in Israel, yet not a peep from Jesus regarding the government, or Paul, regarding resisting the powers.

American Christians are getting ready to go through a very instructive time (and painful) because it cannot be denied that mainline Christianity is very nationalistic and the transformation into the Kingdom of God has not taken place (by and large).

Can you imagine a "War of Independence" waged by the Early Church against the Romans? All the work of the Lord would have been lost in those days and the known world would never have been evangelized. It is not freedom of men that propelled the early church but rather men's oppression and chains. Somehow, we have this notion that the Church in America has been great because of men's laws of freedom, but that is not true and the Church has not been as great as people make it out to be. Let oppression and pain come to America and we will see what the Church is made of and more importantly, who is the Church?

It is not freedom that men offer that has caused the church to do extraordinary feats through the centuries but just the opposite. Christians need to get into their heads that they lose nothing by losing earthly freedoms. In fact, they may find that they gain their souls.

I am not wishing for pain, just trying to learn something from history.

The Church is America, is by and large, a willing ward of the State and they don't realize how they are so easily manipulated by the State to fulfill it's wishes, keeping the masses placated.

 2013/10/10 12:33









 Re:

murrcolr writes........

"It's a terrible curse to be taught from a young age to be a proud Scot and to hate another group of people, the English, then on top of that the Cathoilc-Prodestant rivalry. Nationalism (patriotism)and sectarianism stirs very strong emotions inside men."

Amen brother, I totally agree. Not only did I hate English people, I was born and raised in an Irish Catholic housing scheme and so I know all too well of the hatred of those groups. It does indeed stir strong emotions inside men and if you lived in America, you would see it all around you and would weep to see a people so easily manipulated by unscrupulous politicians and pastors, typically for the filthy lucre and the applause of men.........bro Frank

 2013/10/10 12:44









 Re:

Just-in writes........

"Can you imagine a "War of Independence" waged by the Early Church against the Romans? All the work of the Lord would have been lost in those days and the known world would never have been evangelized. It is not freedom of men that propelled the early church but rather men's oppression and chains. Somehow, we have this notion that the Church in America has been great because of men's laws of freedom, but that is not true and the Church has not been as great as people make it out to be. Let oppression and pain come to America and we will see what the Church is made of and more importantly, who is the Church?

It is not freedom that men offer that has caused the church to do extraordinary feats through the centuries but just the opposite. Christians need to get into their heads that they lose nothing by losing earthly freedoms. In fact, they may find that they gain their souls."

Praise the Lord brother, these mirror my thoughts exactly..........bro Frank

 2013/10/10 12:46





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