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Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re: TMK

Be not confused! This is at least for me, a very helpful conversation. I appreciate your well thought out comments, and I see the persuasive elements in them.

But a real discussion will always take twists and turns as smart and wise people drop in with thoughts and ideas no one could anticipate. We have no authority to establish or alter doctrines, but we do get our thinking patterns challenged. Some may even change some aspect of what they formerly believed- if they indeed have a heart in pursuit of truth. Ultimately truth just is, and it is joie de vivre getting it fresh and new.

Any discussion like this in my mind is intended to enrich my Christian walk and increase Christian love to share. That's why I'm here anyway!


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2013/10/9 0:52Profile









 Re:

Amen to that, Sidewalk!

 2013/10/9 2:59
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5380
NC, USA

 Re:

just-in wrote:

"God does not make people suffer.

God has nothing to do with sending people to hell."

On the surface this sounds reasonable enough, but you don't have to peel back the layers very far to see that it really doesn't hold up.

Who created hell?

I think you previously brought up the point that hell was originally created for the devil and his angels. True enough-- but when mankind fell, God obviously made a decision to cast them in there too. OK- I can possibly concede the point that man chooses to sin (he can't help it- that is his nature) but nonetheless the penalty for same was God-ordained.

Your comment is sort of like saying the state doesn't send people to prison- criminals send themselves there. In a sense they do send themselves there by choosing to commit a crime, but the state created the justice system and the prison and the punishments.


_________________
Todd

 2013/10/9 6:26Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5380
NC, USA

 Re:

I wanted to post an article or blog post I came across a few years back. I am not sure who wrote it.

Now, I want to preface this to say that it is clearly SATIRE. Its purpose it solely to make a point, for what that point is worth.
____________________________________________

As we embark on this perilous journey, I am mindful that with many readers I will offend no matter how I proceed. Therefore, today only, I choose to write in the style of Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events. That said, I must warn you. If you came here to read a warm fuzzy story that will brighten your hum drum day, please go away and come back tomorrow. Indeed, (if you are still reading) I must warn anyone remaining who has a weak heart, a fear of fable, or if they are great with child, I highly recommend that they return to pouring white chocolate into bunny molds, and picking cellophane grass off the floor where it spilled as you hid baskets in the closet. This story does not have a happy ending, it is macabre, even vulgar, and worst of all it will tear at the very foundation of things that make you comfortable. This is a story about what I do not believe, but it's a story you have heard many times before and hoped against hope that it could not be true. Proceed at your own risk:

UNCLE JOE AND THE SECRET BASEMENT CHAMBER OF BAD BOB

Uncle Joe was well liked in the community. He had many children who were all well behaved, except for the occasional cuss word and some lewd thoughts which no one but Uncle Joe knew about. All in all they were good kids, and they loved their dad. That is, all of the children except Bernice. Bernice was not evil. She wore dowdy dresses that kept her out of trouble with the boys, and her grooming was quite good. She even flossed those hard to reach molars the rest of us tell the hygienist we cleaned, but really did not. Bernice did not love her father. She was insolent, and sometimes downright disrespectful. She did not come when she was called, and in fact generally chose to watch American Idol while the rest of the children sat at their father's table. Uncle Joe was quite gracious, but the one thing he could not, indeed would not tolerate was being ignored. As the years went by He grew more and more jealous of all the things Bernice loved more than him. Finally, when she turned seventeen, Uncle Joe had enough. And Uncle Joe had a secret.

Many years ago Uncle Joe had an employee named Bob. Bob was a fabulous employee, but at some point or another attempted a hostile takeover of Uncle Joe's business. Uncle Joe fired Bob. (pun intended) Still, when Bob had no where to go Uncle Joe allowed Bob to live in the basement of the rather stately home where all the children lived. No one ever saw Bob, but they knew he was there, and that he had become a little crazy---because he would scream at night. The children called him (insert ominous whistle through the trees) Bad Bob.

Uncle Joe pulled Bernice into the kitchen and with him at the head chair at the table he listed in shocking detail every bad thing she had ever done. But nothing in her life was as bad as her impertinent attitude towards Uncle Joe. Did he not give her a good home, and make sure she had clothes and food? Still, she chose not to love Uncle Joe, and that was the last straw. Uncle Joe nodded towards the basement door. Bad Bob emerged and suddenly grabbed Bernice and with violence that would make the most fearless reader wince he threw Bernice down the stairs and into the basement. Uncle Joe looked at Bad Bob and said, "I do truly love her; she had her chance; now do what you must."

Bad Bob was forbidden to kill Bernice, but he chained her to a corner of the cement basement---near the furnace. Several times a day Bad Bob poured kerosene on Bernice's limbs and torso and set her on fire. Never enough to kill her of course, just enough that her pain would never end. This went on for decades. The other children suspected what had happened to Bernice, because late at night, when everything was quiet they could hear Bernice screaming and begging Uncle Joe to forgive her. And every once in a while, they would hear Uncle Joe open the basement door, and whisper down the stairs, "I love you Bernice, I really love you, but you had your chance. You missed your window of opportunity. You can never ever come back to the house."

Finally, in a remarkable coincidence wherein a fireman was looking for a lost kitten, Bernice was discovered and rescued. Uncle Joe was put on trial before a stunned community. On the stand Uncle Joe said that Bernice deserved being cast into the basement and all her torment because she had failed to respect him. Uncle Joe also said that he could not be guilty because it was not him who tortured the girl but Bad Bob. The defense put Uncle Joe's children on the witness stand so they could testify of how good Uncle Joe really was, but on cross examination, the other children admitted that yes they really did love Uncle Joe, but more than anything else, they were afraid of being thrown into the basement with Bad Bob.

And here, dear vigilant reader (I really can't believe you stayed this long), the story must end because the jury is still out. Might I be so bold as to ask your opinion? Was Uncle Joe's punishment too severe? Or does disrespecting the head of the house justify a seemingly endless torture that would have made the worst of the Nazis turn away in horror?

In my humble opinion, dear reader, this story simply cannot be true.


_________________
Todd

 2013/10/9 6:40Profile
Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 600
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re:

TMK: "I wanted to post an article or blog post I came across a few years back. I am not sure who wrote it."

FYI: It was written by Kelly Vickers and posted on a website created by a former pastor who is now bitterly against Biblical Christianity.

The article: http://theooze.annex.net/articles/article.cfm?id=1086

About the website that it was posted on:
http://theooze.annex.net/articles/article.cfm?id=827


The satire is obviously written for the purpose of accusing God of being unjust. Why would you post it? You are exposing your true character more and more. This story doesn't even include a representation of the sacrificial horrors of the death of Christ. It is a good-deeds/bad-deeds representation of God and yet accusing what He declares in His Word to be unjust.

Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.



_________________
Michael Strickland

 2013/10/9 10:02Profile









 Re: TMK

Brother the story that you posted malignes the character of God. It also maligned the redemptive work of Christ Jesus on the cross for dinners.

Discussion is one thing. But posting things that are maligning God's character is another. And violates Eph.4:29-30. And does not respect SI rules.

Therefore I ask Greg to kock this thread down.

Blaine Scogin

 2013/10/9 10:12









 Re:

Quote:
I think you previously brought up the point that hell was originally created for the devil and his angels. True enough-- but when mankind fell, God obviously made a decision to cast them in there too.



Man's sin separated him from God. Man separated from God, not the other way around. God cast them out of the garden that man would not partake of the Tree of Life. He did not cast them into hell.

Quote:
OK- I can possibly concede the point that man chooses to sin (he can't help it- that is his nature) but nonetheless the penalty for same was God-ordained.



It was not man's nature to sin when he was created. He was created pure and innocent and given the Word of God. He chose to follow another's word, disregarding what He was told.

Quote:
Your comment is sort of like saying the state doesn't send people to prison- criminals send themselves there. In a sense they do send themselves there by choosing to commit a crime, but the state created the justice system and the prison and the punishments.



Yes, now you've got it. Criminals do send themselves to prison. (our sins will find us out). The State just administrates the justice system and the prison.

God will not let what happened in heaven, happen again. This time, redeemed, regenerated souls will populate heaven.

How could God allow murders, rapists, God-haters, jealous (that one got Lucifer), envious and prideful (Lucifer again), self-sufficient souls into heaven? They would only try to rise up against Him. Since their father is the devil, God would in effect, be allowing Satan back into heaven.

Remember, in the garden, God protected the Tree of Life so that sinful man (Adam) would not eat of it and live forever.

So, there is no way unredeemed man will be in heaven.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Now, "annihilationists" use Gen 3:22 to say, "See, sinners will be annihilated. They will not live forever".

But the word "live" is to save life or live. Also revive.
khaw-yah'ee
A primitive root (compare H2421); to live; causatively to revive: - live, save life.

It is the difference between Life and Death.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Those in hell will not enjoy anything associated with LIFE. They will be tasting of death, forever.

Notice, in Romans 2, that the Holy Spirit contrasts "eternal life" with "Tribulation and anguish".

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

At first, this could possibly mean that being thrown in the "lake which burneth with fire", does not annihilate a person. The Scriptures don't tell us. When you look at the full counsel of God, "annihilationism" is not something you want to "hang your hat on". No one can prove or disprove it. It becomes theological wrangling.

Some people take a chance and think that they will be annihilated once they live their life however they want to (apart from God). But, I don't see anything in Scripture that speaks of annihilation being a fact.

Other verses to consider:

Mark 9:48
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched"

Isaiah 34:10
"It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever."

The question should not be, "will I be annihilated, once I die". The question should be, "What must I do to be saved"?

But I would say, don't underestimate God, because He is not led by feelings, like man is.



 2013/10/9 10:45
sermonindex
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37187
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
Brother the story that you posted malignes the character of God. It also maligned the redemptive work of Christ Jesus on the cross for dinners.



We deleted that same article a few years back. Yes that man is apostate from the Christian faith who wrote that and it is sad to even consider posting it for others to see. We all will be before the Lord soon, may we not be as pre-occupied with our daily life that we are not then therefore eternally minded and sobered towards what is coming for the righteous and unrighteous.

2 Peter 2:9
New International Version
if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.


we feel the discussion has gone its course in this thread and are locking this thread.


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2013/10/9 11:54Profile





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