Many many of us have reached that same conclusion from reading the Scriptures, searching the meanings of the original words, and just knowing the Savior of the World. Forgive your enemies? Bless those who curse you? Do good to those who abuse you? You are asked to do it...but He won't do it Himself?! Eternal punishment and torment is not justice in anyone's reasonable thoughts. It's religious madness; completely unscriptural along with the silly "translation" of the Scriptural "hades", "sheol", "gehenna", and "tartarus" all into the hideous idea of the Babylonian/Egyptian/Greek "hell" of the idolatrous nations. I personally find the rabid adherence to that blasphemous concept by orthodox christianity astounding. Just one man's opinion.
_________________Steve Lindsey
If Hell has a termination point, the pressure comes off for world evangelism. Just let 'em go, it'll all work out in the end. Let's grab a cup of coffee and listen to some tunes.Not buying it. Jesus' description of "Where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" is sufficient for me. Jesus always reassured His disciples that He was giving them complete information, and there is no clear monologue where Hell is described as anything less than eternal separation from the Kingdom of God. My own perception of Hell is that it is the best a loving God can do for souls that do not want Him. Those who reject the provisions God has made for eternal life are subject to permanent separation. Never been there of course, but I take this subject very seriously. Eternity is a long time, and a bad place to place an unsure bet.
_________________Tom Cameron
sidewalk:I think understand exactly what you are saying. And, if I thought the goal of salvation was an eternal destination I would probably agree wholeheartedly. But I see the destination as the icing on the cake and not the substance. There was an enmity between God and man because of sin. I am now reconciled to God. That is, as far as I see it, the reason for and the result of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. To me, a man who turns to Christ because he wishes to avoid hell has a very shaky reason. what if I can give him something to fear more than hell? In other words, I do not believe fear of punishment is God's way of drawing men to himself. But a man who responds to the gospel, the love and grace of God, well be unshakable and immovable. Because of that, the question of eternal torment or destruction of the wicked is not that critical in my mind.
_________________Travis
Agreed, Travis!The fear of Hell has been preached in eloquent and fiery oratory for a long time, without much real success. Show me a Christian who is only there out of a fear of Hell, and I will show you a miserable wretch who is unable to appropriate the love of God in an intimate walk.I suppose we should swing this conversation over to Blaine's new thread, but while we are here, I would bring up something of the character of God that works into the discussion. He is holy, and no sin stains may be tolerated in His presence. What does God love? Easy- He loves His Son, and when we stand before Him that is what He needs to see. I see overwhelming evidence in the scriptures that indicate an eternal separation between those who choose to put themselves in Christ, and those who do not. Questions of annihilation and suffering torment outside of time are beyond my human comprehension, but larger than that is the obligation I have to the clear Word of God. When that light comes to me and I make a choice to obey God, I come to his judgement and mercy. I have to trust that He knows what He is doing!A wise old missionary I knew back in Bible School explained the conversation between Jesus and the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane.Jesus' prayer, His "will," was to inquire whether there was another way to secure salvation for His beloved disciples (read you and me in that) that did not include the cross.The Father's answer was simple. "You do not owe a death for sin. You may come back to your exalted position anytime, right now if you wish. But I have no other way to save them, no plan B if this is your choice."Thus Jesus made more than one trip from the garden to pass the sleeping disciples, men with no knowledge that their eternal destiny was hanging in the air.He returned and returned, with His will against the Father's will. And so He laid His down, "Not my will but Thine be done."It was the free choice of the Son of Man to purchase our salvation because there was no other plan, and He was the only one who could accomplish the Father's will. The Father never gave Jesus an option of a temporary Hell, it was all or nothing. The Father did not kill His Son, our sin did. The Father loved the world and when He sent His Son, the Son loved the world too. John 3:16, as you will recall.Men prefer their own devices , their own destiny, their own selfishness. They rail against a God they will not let in to reveal the truth, and spit in the face of the only One who can save them. The Bible has no options from Genesis to Revelation for their redemption outside of Jesus Christ. They will for eternity inherit.....themselves.
by murrcolr on 2013/10/6 14:57:44...According to Grubb, all will eventually be saved and be one or in unity.http://www.tikkunministries.org/newsletters/dj-aug11.phpI started to listen to a sermon on sermonindex called hell part 1 and 2 by Norman Grubb.. I stopeed listening as personally believe he is a gnostic so be careful..
Isn't the best thing to do in this scenario to go back and pull out the scriptures that we believe show Hell is a real place vs. hell being an action of the destruction of the wicked? Once a person gets that foundation then you can find out why someone who doesn't believe the same believes what they believe.We can support each other by saying Hell is definitely real but all that does is it gives us our own cheerleading section without a proper foundation to support the notion of what hell really is.It is like arguing who Jesus is and the Trinity. Many scriptures refer to Jesus as Son of God and appear to show Jesus as separate from God yet there are also scriptures that show Jesus is God as well. Using the original language can also help in this effort. I had someone email me scripture showing Jesus is not God and in turn I shared verses where scripture shows Jesus is God and asked this person to respond to what they read. No response.
_________________John
I have read all of Norman Grubb's many books, listened to all 60 of his sermons here on SI and corresponded with people who new him. The Tikkun Ministries article is all wrong. He emphatically did not teach universalism and I do not recall him ever mentioning the doctrines of annihilation or "final restitution." Heresy-hunters like Juster are notoriously incapable of understanding the people they criticize. They are afraid to think thru a doctrine that differs from their own school of dogma for fear of soiling their minds with heretical thoughts. They will not allow themselves to understand, so they are always mischaracterizing and missing the mark.(You Calvinists are surely familiar with that phenomenon: most guys who preach against Calvinism don't even know what Calvinism is.)But back to Norman. As Director of World Evangelism Crusade, he went thru a crisis of faith after reading "Varieties of Religious Experience" by William James, and found himself wondering if his own Christian experience was a figment of his imagination. He took a one year furlough and found his footing again thru the mystical writings of Jacob Boehme and William Law.Thenceforth his message was Union Life: "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me, and the life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal. 2:20 The message is, not only Christ for us, with us and in us, but Christ *as* us. The Christian life is Christ living His life thru us, not us trying to do for Him. Humans have no moral nature: we are only vessels: Vessels of wrath or vessels of mercy. Rom. 9:22-23 (NB! A wrathful Christian may immediately be recognized as a false Christian, animated by the spirit of error.)Anyway, you can see why Norman ran afoul of the religious authorities. His later teachings were a significant departure from mainstream theology. Evangelical theology puts a huge emphasis on human performance and has led millions of believers into the perpetual defeat of self-effort. Norman called it "the Romans 7 life" and his Union Life Gospel was a frontal assault against evangelical Pop Theology. Thus he became persona non grata in respectable religious circles.In the 50's he was world-famous, a best-selling author, preached to packed arenas, sometimes shared a pulpit with Leonard Ravenhill and wrote articles for Tozer's newsletter. In his later years he travelled the country preaching the Union Life message in people's living rooms. No church would have him.If you want to learn more about Union Life (and I hope you do!) check out http://christasus.comFor more about Jacob Boehmehttp://jacobboehmeonline.com
_________________Wayne Kraus
I agree with you wayneman. I have not read nearly as much as you regarding Norman Grubb, but what I have read I do not find anything regarding annihilation or "final restitution."