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 The Kundalini Spirit & The Souls & Bodies of men!

Below is a link to a documentary which is both useful as a visual reminder of what has happened since the mid 1990’s in the charismatic movement, but it also provides a good historical time line of the personalities involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5ZvPwFamqs

Just to flesh out something of what Andrew Strom the commentator says on the video which relates to discernment. A number of times Mr Strom says that we should be concerned that the greatest apostolic and prophetic leaders of the charismatic movement have failed to discern the kundalini spirit which is exhibited in the clips he shows both from Hinduism and the various churches and meetings represented. If you look at these videos carefully however you can see that although there is clearly a confusion in both groups (Hindus & Believers) there is a greater amount of order in the Hindu group. In other words whilst many individuals exhibit these symptoms of having received an unclean spirit, many more do not exhibit these same symptoms at all. What does this mean as far as discernment is concerned? Is Mr Strom speaking about a general discernment or is he speaking about specific discernment? I believe he is in fact speaking about a general discernment in that the charismatic leaders being spoken of ought to have realised that the symptoms exhibited in the early days of Rodney Howard Brown formed a reasonable basis for rejection of the whole movement which is linked in the way Mr Strom suggests.

What then can we make today of the fact that these meetings are filled with men and women who take the name of the Lord and so far as we are able to know, are believers no less than we are ourselves? How is it that so many believers cannot discern in the moment what manner of spirit is being manifest? The answer I believe has to do with the men and women who have become the visible personalities of these movements, because whilst they themselves all testify to some remarkable as well as sometimes bizarre encounters with God, they are not so much possessed as we would think, but are essentially cooperating with evil spirits which are well hidden and not physically present in these meetings as we would expect. In short they have gone through a process in which their own lives and experiences, which are mostly hidden, make certain that deception is the reality of the fruit of their private and hidden behaviour. It is as much more a likelihood that they themselves are the demonic instrument in the end by reason of having disregarded sin in their own lives, than it is likely that a demon is possessing them directly and manifesting in them in visibility through the laying on of hands.

In this instance it will be impossible to discern a spirit, because a man cannot be discerned. Men can be observed, heard, and touched, they cannot be discerned in the same way that an unclean spirit can be discerned. It clearly must be necessary to be able to discern that which is of Satan, especially error, and it cannot be any less obvious that if a demonic agency is present in a locality, it too must be discernible. The one, that of general discernment is a reality borne out of possessing the life of Christ and walking in the Spirit, having a sound doctrine. The other is a gift of the Holy Spirit, of the discerning of spirits. All of this raises a real problem however. If Andrew Strom is right and the physical manifestations observed in both the Hindus and the believers in the videos is received by the laying on of hands and imparted in that way, how is it that so many believers present in these meetings have not discerned the presence of unclean spirits in their midst? It is too simplistic to say that every single person in these meetings is lacking in discernment or that every single person in these meetings is not a true believer.

Conversely if the manifestations are not the outworking or consequence of unclean spirits being present in the meetings and passing from one to another through the laying on of hands, how are these manifestations produced? This latter question must be applied to both Hindus and believers, even as the laying on of hands, as well as the manifestations are clearly the same or similar in both groups.

The Demonic Self

My own understanding is a simply one. In these videos both the Yogic Hindu Priest and the minister in the Church are operating out of the very same substance of mind and body. Both are in agreement in their own minds and bodies with what they are doing and their intention in it. The profound difference between the Yogic Hindu priest and the believing minister is their ability to produce or else provoke supernatural effects and symptoms in other people. Watch the videos again and see just what a difference there is in the Hindu clips and the believers clips. The effect in the believers clips is multiplied several fold that of the Hindu clips. This should give us cause for thought at the very least. How is this possible?

After all it is not difficult to believe that the Hindu priest is himself possessed and that he is therefore literally passing on an unclean spirit to those he lays hands on and thereby they also become possessed or at very least influenced beyond the point of physical contact with the practitioner. In the Hindu clips, especially the scene of the Yogic mat with hundreds of yogic disciples, there is order and self control for the most part. Then there is the occasional laughing of one here and one there. Even this is not chaotic. The same is true for the spasms which are less dramatic in the Hindu yogic disciples than in the believers. It is possible to believe that an unclean spirit is atmospherically working to help produce this same Kundalini effect in believers. It is less easy to believe that the christian minister is actually possessed as he must be if his hands are the instrument by which this spiritual effect is passed on or released. Observationally it would be almost impossible to make a separation between this claim of physical contact and the impetus of the effects as seen, yet we must pass beyond mere observation if we are to comprehend what all of this means.

I have to say this plainly because there is no other way to say it. I believe that the christian minister in many of these situations, where the effect is much more visible and profound is in truth a more demonic man than the hindu yogic priest. In saying this I am not saying that the christian minister is a more possessed man than the hindu yogic priest. I am saying that neither men need to be possessed at all. Both men can be acting out of their own natural abilities and knowledge. The difference between these two types of men is that the Hindu knows that his efforts are grounded in the physical body, the christian minister believes that what he is imparting is spiritual. For the Hindu yogic there is a restraint of many years of seeking to understand the Shakras as well as the Nadis of the physical body as defined and presented in mathematical, diagrammatical and philosophical language which forms the core of Hindu belief systems. For the christian minister it is believed that he is imparting the Holy Spirit and is predicated on speech (preaching) rather than physical manipulation or the knowledge of it.

Hindu Philosophy & Physiology

The Shakras are essentially centres of energy and are physically located vertically through the body is seven (twelve) different places [12 chakras and seven]. The Nadis are essentially the fluid channels of the movement of energy around the body. There have been as many as 72,000 different channels identified and these correspond to the physical nervous system through a complex intertwining effect. This intertwining is more evident at the base of the spine than in any other part of the body. This is the central point of occurrence of the Kundalini awakening which is attained through Hindu yogic practises as defined by classical Hinduism. It is also the first Shakra and the philosophical and physical connection between the adept and the spirit of the earth. Hence the presentation of the classic hindu seated position as emblematic of Yogic and Hindu practises and beliefs. It s the bum on the floor literally.

This interrelationship between the bodies nervous system, having its principle outworking at the base of the spine, is described as a coiled snake (Kundalini). It is the release of this energy in rather the same way one would conceive of the upward thrust observed when any coil is released, which forms the central ambition of self awakening and so-called spiritual enlightenment in Yogic practises. The Hindu yogic priest in the video clips demonstrates the “brow shakra” being manipulated and hence the importance of the physical relationship between “awakening” and its meaning in Hindu Philosophy.

As far as the believers are concerned whilst I have personally witnessed this technique (brow shakra) being used even as recently as three months ago in a christian meeting, it is clear that in many instances the laying on of hands is a less physically specific act and is much more generalised on the front of the head or else front and crown. Some times it is clear that this effect is achieved without even having hands laid on at all and sometimes with the lightest of touches. All of this tells us that whilst the Hindu technique is grounded in a developed understanding and manipulation of the body, the christian technique is grounded principally in speech and less in the physical parameters of the body. In essence the christian technique is more sophisticated and attends much more to the relationship between emotions and the physical body. In this it is in reality much more occult in its outworking and consequence.

I am not really seeking to demonstrate anything specific in this article beyond the fact that although, when we speak of the demonic from a scriptural perspective, we are speaking about possession in the New Testament in the majority of instances and worship of demons in the Old Testament, yet what is observed in this so-called Kundalini spirit is in my understanding neither possession or worship. It is men.....souls and bodies at work. Whatever part demonic spirits play in this it is primarily in the air and it is unlikely to be a physical presence in a meeting. If anything demons are much more likely to be hidden and remain hidden for fear of discovery. Their efforts are best served in a man and the man is best serving them when he is himself a demonic man.

I believe that just six instances of specific individual possession are listed in the New Testament although an unspecified number are stated as forming part of the disciples as well as the Lord’s ministry. In the case of the six specific instances of possession cited all but one of these possessions resulted in symptoms of physical or mental illness. Only once do we read (as far I know) of a perceived benefit attached to demonic possession. In one instance we read of a demon forming the basis of enhanced mental powers in a female servant. I suppose that the validity of Mr Strom's presentation from my own understanding has to do with the reality that eastern mysticism, which is the broader occult backdrop for this Kundalini effect, has been embraced into the church through false teachers.

Of Hinduism

The specific branch of Hinduism which is drawn upon philosophically to inform those who teach Yogic self enlightenment of the form which has become known as Kundalini Yoga is शैव पंथ, (śaiva paṁtha) Puranic Shaivism. Beyond this philosophical foundation of course are men and women at work in their own ambitions and desires as well as demonic spirits. In saying this we have to strike a balance and realise that unclean spirits work in every place and with equal effect in every place as far as philosophy and religion is concerned. Whist it may well be true, that in India generally and historically (especially in the Himalayas and the North Eastern regions of India), this practise was developed and drew its meaning from oral and then written traditions, it is based just as essentially in physical manifestations in the body itself where ever men and women can be found to express the philosophical as well as physical knowledge underpinning it. Shiva is regarded as the “spirit” which gave rise to Yoga and forms the most effectual of all the Hindu philosophical threads of thought and outworking in visibility. Therefore it is not possible to ignore the demonic spirits which wage war against the saints to wear them down and to introduce false “spirits” into the churches.

The earliest roots of this introduction of demonic “spirits” into the Western World and Britain in particular came during the days of the Raj in India. From which intellectual Brahmin as well as Sikh were able to travel from India to England in particular and mingle with high society, especially the academic and business communities in the wealthier cities including Leicester in the Midlands. Jessie Penn-Lewis was not ignorant of this class of men in English society during the late Victorian era and the Edwardian Era. More specifically Mrs Penn-Lewis speaks about Hinduism from her visits to north east India (Simla) the same general region which forms the historical seed bed of Kundalini yogic occultism as presented in Western Societies. Because Mrs Penn-Lewis came to realise that the soul itself was a powerful force she was naturally concerned by some of what she learned about the Welsh Revival which lasted just 10 months between 1904/5. Although it is certain that Mrs Penn-Lewis had nothing to do with Evan Roberts nervous breakdown and crisis in 1905 when the Welsh Revival was at its height, it is clear that Mrs Penn-Lewis did confirm Evan’s own fears that at least elements of what happened in the Welsh revival was of Satan and not of the Lord and that Evan himself had been deceived in some measure. http://www.revival-library.org/pensketches/revivalists/robertse.html

The point in all of this is really a simply point. I believe Mrs Penn-Lewis got it wrong as far as the demonic is concerned because her focus was more on the demonic realm than the soul itself and especially the vulnerability in the relationship between the physiological and the psychical realities of the human condition (Flesh). In saying this I believe that Mrs Penn-Lewis has to some extent been misrepresented badly by some brethren in that she has been accused of overemphasising demonic activity itself as though a demon could be anything or do anything or achieve anything without the cooperation of the man. I think Jessie Penn-Lewis was as much concerned with the soul itself as she was with demonic activity and was also concerned about the fleshy body which provides the physical basis for the sensations which facilitate deception. What Mrs Penn-Lewis could not “prove” was the complexity of the relationship between human physiology and consciousness of the soul. Consequently her own attempts to demonstrate this relationship and the implication of being ignorant of it for believers who seek for spiritual experiences, was a clear and real danger. Who can doubt this in the modern malaise of madness where truth and sound doctrine are set aside in favour of “spiritual” experiences.

Mrs Penn-Lewis was concerned with the relationship between the induction of neurological passivity and how that attends to the release of latent soulish energy and effects and in consequence how demonic spirits can masquerade as the Spirit of God as evidenced by certain physical and auditory manifestations. The physical would be along the lines of the video shown by Andrew Strom and the auditory would be essentially false tongues and false prophecy. I would add that at its most sophisticated outworking it is sorceric (pseudo-prophetic) speech.

To quote her:

“The lower nerve-centres (the ganglionic system, or the "vegetative" nerves, as they are called), which have their chief seat in the region round the pit of the stomach, are excited to increased activity. At the same time the central region of the higher nervous system (the cerebral system), which in a normal state of affairs is the medium of conscious perception and action, becomes paralysed. There is a reversal of the order of nature. The lower nerves take over the duty of the higher ones (a sort of compensation). This state of things comes to pass negatively by the higher organ losing its natural supremacy under pressure of illness, or artificially by hypnotism, auto-suggestion, etc. and positively by the lower nerves being in some way excited artificially to increased activity, whereby they get the upper hand. These nerves then display abilities which our ordinary organs of sense do not possess, they receive impressions from a realm usually closed to us, such as clairvoyance, presentiments, prophecy, speaking with tongues, etc. (War on the Saints 1912 Unabridged Edition).

A more modern explanation

In modern parlance the vegetative nervous system is generally called the autonomic nervous system and consists of the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system. See Fig.14.2.jpg. What Mrs Penn-Lewis calls the higher nervous system is really the central nervous system, that of the physical brain and the spinal chord as well as the peripheral sensory system derived from it (nervousorg.jpg). It is the central nervous system which interplays with and produces behaviour and self awareness and although there is no precise physical explanation as to how this self awareness and the attendant behavioural synthesises arises, the field of study which primarily looks into this is psychology. Language plays a massive roll in the synthesis between the psychical (biblical soul or psuche Gk) the physiological, neurological and sympathetic nervous system. Mrs Penn-Lewis in her own explanation was seeking to essentially assert that physical realities both internal and external can induce a state neurological passivity which then releases the necessary mechanisms for the soul to experience a higher realm. What she was unable to properly describe and therefore largely left it out of her preaching and teaching ministry through books at least was the relationship between speech, behaviour and physiology. This relationship was crudely visible in 1912 when War on the Saints was written, in a theory called Classical Conditioning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning Today this theory is now fully explored and is additionally informed by a more sophisticated theory called Operant Conditioning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning In short the outworking is that had Mrs Penn-Lewis had the means of making a scientific connection between speech and behaviour she would not have had to rely so heavily on her passivity model for explaining why believers could become susceptible through a form of neuro hypnosis to soulish or pseudo spiritual experiences grounded in the body and why she felt inclined to move evermore towards a demonic interventionist model.

I go a good deal further than Mrs Penn-Lewis in one respect (disregarding neurological hypnosis) I get straight to the point. Those who are pseudo-prophetic can and do command, compel, control and manipulate others by speech alone. The higher realm of experience which is induced by this means both in the pseudo-prophetic man or woman as well as in the hearer may be nothing more than self conscious fulfilment in the realm of the souls own powers to deceive. How this then extends into ariel activity is a matter for the individual and their personal ambitions. Yet it is within the dominion and control of the individual and may not be demonic unclean spirits at work in the air. Their work is done in the individual man or woman when the man or woman has become the power or agency of continuation through seduction by the physiological means herein described in others as well as through language, and finally through written texts of sophistication and induction when the foundation is laid down. In short is is sorcery.

When a person is stimulated and directs their energies, the effects can be profound and go beyond what any one individual on their own would be able to resist of reject as anything other than evidence of some “higher” spiritual achievement. It is of course not true and represents nothing more than the mind and the body, where the mind exceeds the physical or vegetative (autonomic) functions of the body and experiences the “awakening” of the soul. In Hindu Yogic practise, the term spiritual is a misnomer or pseudo expression and is often spoken of in western presentations of this occult knowledge of human psycho-physiology, in similar terms. In reality the meaning is really no more that the latent power of the soul released from a direct dependancy on the physical body. The Hindu schematic of the physiological base for this release speaks for itself (images). Rooted in the limitations of Sanskrit, of the 10th century there is no precise word for spirit, as there was in fact no belief in the spirit at all. Everything which is spoken of has to do with the soul and corresponds entirely to western perceptions of the psuche of greek philosophy and the psyche of modern psychology. In short the idea that Hindu Yogic practises are aimed at spiritual benefits is a total and complete deception pressed into American culture especially since the 1960’s, having been provoked into public interest and therefore experienced, through societal drug abuse in the first popular instance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbhajan_Singh_Yogi Since that first wave of acceptance it has taken a more rational and seemingly intellectual position and is said to be no more than a physical benefit.

Of the Saints

If we look at the video again we see just how this reality is worked out in an open and wilfully blasphemous way. The so-called “toking the Ghost” as expressed by John Crowder is a clear expression of a demonic mind at work where the blasphemer has to speak against a true knowledge of Christ and the Holy Spirit in saying what they do. This speaking against is the very distinction which exists between the Hindu unbeliever who cannot act in any true knowledge and the christian who has the true knowledge of God and Christ. I believe that this is why Andrew Strom singles this man out for the clearest condemnation as to his speech and behaviour. What disturbs many believers with regards to men like John Crowder is precisely that one cannot discern an evil or unclean spirit, yet his speech and manner of behaviour is clearly demonic. The manifest difference between Hindu Yogic occult practises and this “show” by believers is that the “show” is induced by speech primarily and yet does not neglect the physical reality of using the (hands) body itself as an instrument to both impute meaning and emphasis as well as to facilitate physical familiarity. None of the things which are visible in these videos, in so far as believers are concerned, need be the evidence of evil spirits at work in individuals. Or represent a risk of possession to anyone on the receiving end. Possession is a rarity in men of sound mind and body. It will undoubtably be true that these individual men and women who practise familiar occult techniques to induce effects amounting to psycho-physical and psychosomatic effects in others are themselves the principle spirit or agency in these events. They are the direct and visible beneficiaries and they themselves are accountable before God.

Should we therefore condemn them outright and say of them that they have no true knowledge of Christ? We cannot condemn them because though we are called to judge one another, we are not called to condemn one another as though we ourselves understood the outcome of these things. We can however separate from them and ought to do without reservation. Indeed it is precisely because John Crowder can talk a great deal of sound doctrine that he is a dangerous man.

http://www.apostasyalert.org/REFLECTIONS/crowder.htm

The present drunkenness and outward manifestations which accompany this new wave of deception sweeping across North America as well as other nations around the world, is a deception in so far as it is believed to be an evidence of the power and presence of God. It is no such thing. It is no more than Hindu Yogic Priests of the Kundalini tradition of Hindu practise have been exhibiting for a thousand years. In the past it was informed supernaturally by demonic spirits well familiar with human physiology through countless successive possessions of generations of men and women who freely gave themselves to these things by reason of self gratification and personal power over others. This familiar knowledge of the body and mind are inevitably interwoven into demon worship through outward things such as idols and even individual men being held up as “masters” and “teachers” or great men of God, being expressed also in diagrammatical forms both mathematically, geometrically as well as semantically through language.

Today the instruments of science have observed the physiology of Hindu Yogic belief and so these things have (in unbelievers) gained a rational basis for acceptance. In the saints it is inexcusable to allow the body itself to be an instrument of testing or else knowing truth because the Holy Spirit Himself bears witness to the Truth of Christ in our true spirits made alive together in Christ, and not the things of men whether their bodies or their souls. Yet if we seek to discern an unclean spirit in these things of men, we will be left wondering. Men cannot be discerned in this way as though they had already tasted death. Their words are a better informant of their activities and so we need to learn to listen more perfectly when they speak and not be afraid to walk away or feel condemned ourselves because we comprehend a need to be separate from these things. If men receive flattery for doing no more than they have been freely given in Christ Jesus for your sake, do not receive the man. He is already vulnerable to himself and in that he is vulnerable to the air.

Further links for informational purposes

http://www.innerexplorations.com/ewtext/kun.htm Be warned of this one!

http://www.newchristian.org.uk/kundalini.html Safe!

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_humanmultidimensionaanatomy.htm Be informed!

http://www.adishakti.org/subtle_system/chakras.htm Be Sensible!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jtVGxJU-j2I From the early seventies.

Further useful link

http://www.wordconnect.org/page_background_spiritualism_in_the_church.php

Conclusion

You may be wondering what specifically is the connection between Hinduism and those men and women who profess a faith in the Lord Jesus who feature in the original video by Andrew Strom or the others named in the links provided.

The simplest and most direct answer is this. Do not be led on or taught by physical sensations. Do not be taught or led on by exhilaration. Do not be taught or led on by emotional floods of tears and even feelings of repentance or a belief in the activity of the Holy Spirit by those means. Do not follow men and women who promote signs and wonders, by proclamations and shouts and commands even unto heaven itself. Judge yourself and be led by a mind of obedience at all times to those things which you know you ought to do. Finally resist those things which you know you ought not to do. In all things be sober and of a sound mind.

 2013/9/29 19:02









 Re: The Kundalini Spirit & The Souls & Bodies of men!

I agree with most of this but would like to point out that the following:

Quote:
“The lower nerve-centres (the ganglionic system, or the "vegetative" nerves, as they are called), which have their chief seat in the region round the pit of the stomach, are excited to increased activity. At the same time the central region of the higher nervous system (the cerebral system), which in a normal state of affairs is the medium of conscious perception and action, becomes paralysed. There is a reversal of the order of nature. The lower nerves take over the duty of the higher ones (a sort of compensation). This state of things comes to pass negatively by the higher organ losing its natural supremacy under pressure of illness, or artificially by hypnotism, auto-suggestion, etc. and positively by the lower nerves being in some way excited artificially to increased activity, whereby they get the upper hand. These nerves then display abilities which our ordinary organs of sense do not possess, they receive impressions from a realm usually closed to us, such as clairvoyance, presentiments, prophecy, speaking with tongues, etc. (War on the Saints 1912 Unabridged Edition).



was not written by Jessie Penn-Lewis but is quoted by her in War on the Saints from a book by Pastor Ernst Lohmann and translated from German published in The Overcomer in 1910. It is conveniently left out in most charismatic printings of her book.

 2013/9/30 3:57
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

The Early Years of the Tongues Movement

http://www.banner.org.uk/tb/lang.html

A very interesting book once you start to read it, you won’t stop as it's eye opening…

Now personally I am not against speaking in tongues as I speak in tongues and could speak in tongues before I ever went to church at the time of my conversion.

I have experienced laughing, but it was only once and it didn't last long it was a few years before the Toronto blessing thing. I was a young Christian and had been praying for a specific thing, I had held on in faith praying and believing that God heard and would answer my prayer. Many times during that time my mind had been assaulted with doubts but I kept on praying and believing then when the answer came all I could was laugh as there was a great release of joy. Now a release of joy while in prayer when the break through comes is not an uncommon thing and I am sure many can testify to it.

There is a trend running through history of the church the false mimicking the true we must be on guard against it.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/9/30 12:11Profile









 Re:

As I think that I have mentioned before Colin, no-one I know who speaks in tongues has been successful in receiving the second blessing of holiness. Teachers of it in the past were opposed to the practise. If I was seeking the blessing I would not risk going against these great teachers of the past even if I had utterly convincing experiences that made me think they were from God. I would not pressume ever that I was beyond being deceived by the enemy as I know that he is much cleverer than me and can convince me of anything. We also cannot 'claim the blood' to prevent being fooled by him. Only those walking in holiness are free from his deceptions. If we still sin then we are open to deception and whatever we do to plead protection will not protect us when we are still fleshy. I have issued a challenge to those seeking to just give my words a fair trial and God will not rebuke for testing the spirits but I have not met anyone yet who will take it seriously. The result is that many are seeking but no-one is finding.

 2013/9/30 12:38
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 516
America's Heartand

 Re:

 2013/9/30 16:47Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: If I was seeking the blessing I would not risk going against these great teachers of the past even if I had utterly convincing experiences that made me think they were from God.

Krautfrau - Just prior to being was born again, the violent anger in me that had wreaked havoc in my town and family through the weekend. Those faces that I had battered and bruised burden on my mind the whole day and on Sunday night, I turned to God to be changed. With a simple prayer I said "God I am fed up being like this change me"

The after lying down on my bed a wind left me and then another wind started to blow onto me and I sat up and spoke with a new language, which was the moment that I changed. What God has given then will not hinder what God will give in the future.

That very same spirit that entered me that night is the same spirit that urges me towards the Holy life, it’s that same Spirit that still small voice in me that says “offer your body as a living sacrifice and surrender all”. My hindrance; is that I am yet not able to surrender all. However that still small voice comforts me and encourages me and reminds me of God’s goodness, so my only reply can be yes God I will surrender all.

The issue is not tongues it’s surrender….

Quote: Only those walking in holiness are free from his deceptions.

Krautfrau –As I draw closer to God I truly am finding that there is great humility working in me. I like what Andrew Murray says “Humility is the bloom and the beauty of holiness” but then on the other hand the mark of counterfeit holiness is its lack of humility.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/9/30 19:43Profile









 Re: The Kundalini Spirit & The Souls & Bodies of men!

Quote:
……was not written by Jessie Penn-Lewis but is quoted by her in War on the Saints from a book by Pastor Ernst Lohmann and translated from German published in The Overcomer in 1910. It is conveniently left out in most charismatic printings of her book. Brenda



Yes I should have remembered that Brenda. I did read that fact quiet recently and so should have remembered that Jessie Penn-Lewis was not the actual author of the quotation but rather Ernst Lohmann.

I would like to stress that although much of what I have shared is already well known by many believers, it may be poorly understood in reality of experience. So much so that in this knowledge we may be inclined to attribute every deluding influence to demonic spirits and not see that men and women can of themselves serve the same purpose. In asking how it is possible for unclean spirits to influence believers in a meeting where Christ is in the midst by the Holy Spirit, I am not seeking to make an argument for rejecting the gifts of the Holy Spirit nor should it be one. It is a sincere question borne out of years of experience and reflection on my own discernment, beginning with the first church I attended which taught and believed in the gift of tongues, and where I first really became burdened for the youth of the church especially.

How can the Holy Spirit be at work in the meeting in which people are being saved and at the same time unclean spirits are working in the air to deceive? Some would say that it is not possible and others would claim that the whole atmosphere can be saturated with them. Yet who actually discerns these spirits at the time this is happening? The answer is that few report such discernment. Why is this? If the atmosphere is so full of devilish activity how is it possible that so few are able to discern their activity clearly?

Many believers doubt that there are demonic agencies who hide and seek to take advantage of men and women for their own purposes. Many others attribute to demons everything which they reject. The baptism and the gifts of the Holy Spirit is found right at the heart of this concern. The fact that deception can happen even in revival is remarkable, yet it can and does happen. For me the balance lays in the realisation that the Holy Spirit works principally in the spirits of men. He does not need to pass through the air in the same way unclean spirits are required to. The Holy Spirit can clearly exercise total dominion and authority in any and all places without limit. Yet it is an undoubted fact that He does not overwhelm the will and emotions of men and women in order to change them from the outside. Demons do. Praise God the Father that the Holy Spirit alone has the authority to labour from the inside. If the believer is in a wrong attitude and has made themselves vulnerable, by anticipating the outward power of God, then they may be vulnerable to deceiving spirits working in the air itself. Yet if the outward and visible power of God were truly as it is demonstrated to be in the Scriptures no one would doubt the outward evidences of God any more than a truly saved person can doubt the inward realities of God either. If it is to be outward then it must be unequivocal and untainted. "Gold and silver I have not" said Peter "that which I have I give you" If the man to whom Peter spoke these words had not received the thing spoken by Peter then Peter would have been a fraud and a boaster. Yet today many men and women boast in that which is not in fact visible at all. With Peter as with the Lord and all the apostles that which was inward was given to a visible good outcome and effect.

‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ John 7:38

The greek word used in John 7:38 for "inner most part" is κοιλία. It is the same word used for the belly and the womb. It is used metaphorically in this verse to denote the individual "cavity" of the soul. It is the sense of an infilling and is expressed in the Scripture in 1 Corinthians 6:19-20. The interesting thing about such a usage of κοιλία lies in the fact that it would have been just as easy for John to have used the word πνεμα (spirit) if he had emphatically intended to communicate the idea that our souls and bodies are somehow separate from our service to others. Yet John uses the word κοιλία (belly) instead. It is inconceivable that John made a mistake and intended that we understand the Lord as saying that those who come to Him would thereafter promote natural appetites. So why the metaphorical use then? I believe it is because John must express that which is fully true. The life which we receive when we come to Christ is spiritual life as distinct from natural life. This new life passes through the vessel of the soul and is expressed through the physical body itself.

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Romans 8:11

The simple reality for believers is this. We yet live in this physical body. We have independent minds, emotions and our will is our own. We are also spirit born of Spirit. We are in Christ seated at the right hand of the Father and Christ is in us by the indwelling Holy Spirit. If we were to claim that the Holy Spirit operates through our own spirit independently of our minds and bodies we would have formed a basis for an aesthetic life in which we deny every natural instinct of the body and every activity of the soul as well. Such a life would be extreme and would lead us into a mystical life with no practical outworking whatsoever. We would be better hermits than husbands, wives, and so on. Yet every true believer regardless of their own lives has a part to play in the church as well. How can we play that part if we are so removed from basic physical realities? And instead lay hold of a mystical ambition in the neglect of our own souls and bodies!

In practical terms we are vulnerable to our own bodies and our own inclination of the natural mind. So long as this remains true, we have no way of denying this reality in order to minister to others nor will it produce an effective attitude in receiving ministry from others. As long as we do not comprehend the way appointed by the Father in heaven through Christ to deal with this problem, we will never truly know the renewing of our minds and the liberty of our bodies. Not only this but we will be vulnerable to deception made possible through our own bodies and the activity of demonic powers working through the air. We will be especially vulnerable to men and women who labour before our very eyes and can reach out in a familiarity of our bodies and speak into our minds through our ears. Deception may well come from without and it comes by way of our eyes and ears as well as by outward and inward sensations of the body itself. Indeed the body is capable of expressing the life of the soul to such acute levels of concentration that it would be very easy to believe that such things are not truly spiritual in nature. Yet beyond that which is outward the Lord has told us that it is that which comes out of the man which corrupts.

We are of course familiar with this verse of Scripture from John 7:38 and we are equally familiar with the idea that believers themselves are instruments of grace and life to those whom we serve. In seeking to understand how to receive from others as well as to give to others in service of Christ the distinction cannot be the atmosphere at all. It is the instrument itself which ought to concern us. If men labour out of their souls and do not know the reality of that precious dependence upon the life of Christ working in them, they will not know the true meaning of the life of Christ working through them. What men and women, labouring in their own strength, are in danger of exhibiting and giving out, is their own thoughts and feelings exercised in the power of their own will. If they are fleshy, unrepentant and worse still, greedy and boastful, they will infect the hearer with their own ideas and the one affected will be taken prisoner by the mechanism of their own flesh. If we seek that which is outward and visible and cannot comprehend the necessity for the strengthening of the inner life on a daily basis through repentance and self denial we may find that we will either reject all of the blessing of the Holy Spirit or lay ourselves open to demonic deception working through a man. This is very different to claiming that demons themselves induce every response as a mechanism for deceiving believers. It is the very fabric of the body itself and its relationship to the soul that facilitates the outcome through the mind. Only in some circumstances can demons invade the mind to such an extent that they can direct that experience to their own ends.

The lesser effect is of course much more common. It is that of believing that a supernatural manifestation which by passes the cognitive volitional function of conscious speech is a true manifestation of the Holy Spirit (Tongues). Some months ago Brenda I said to you in another post that Watchman Nee has referred to the gift of tongues as a bypassing of the mind and I recall that you responded with a request for the reference. I couldn't give it at the time but I have found it in researching this article.

"Let us return to the principle of tongues. Why do we pay attention to this matter? Because in the New Testament Paul compares tongues with prophetic ministry. Why is not the speaking in tongues forbidden? Because it is profitable to the one who speaks in tongues. Yet why is it useless in the ministry of the word? For the simple reason that there is no human understanding and no human element involved in tongues. To speak in tongues depends entirely upon the Holy Spirit, that is, the person speaks with his own spirit as God’s Spirit gives him words. But it is nothing more. To our thinking, tongues may be better than prophecy, for is it not better to speak in God’s own words or in the words of the Holy Spirit? Nonetheless the Bible views tongues as being inferior to prophetic ministry. God places the latter above tongues. A prophetic ministry includes in it God’s word plus the prophet himself. In other words, the living water in the words flows out from the depths of the prophet; it does not pour down from heaven. This is a very fundamental principle in the New Testament." The Ministry of God's Word page 182 Electronic Version Page 191 Paper version CFC Publications.

We can see here how Nee clearly understood that tongues bypassed the mind and came directly from the spirit. In this sense Nee speaks of that which "pour[s] down from heaven". Whereas prophecy is very much expressed through the whole man, spirit [light], soul [mind] and body [mouth]. The light by which the prophet is burdened to speak, comes from within, and is expressed as "living water" as it flows out of the spirit in a coequal effort of the man yielding to the Holy Spirit and simultaneously exercising his own will (1 Corinthians 14:32). There is no passivity involved in this reality. Not of tongues and especially not of prophecy. Simply because the gift of tongues cannot of necessity be a product of the mind itself even when it is a true gift of the Holy Spirit, does not mean that there is a need for passivity.

In fact I have been reading this description by Ernst Lohmann for months and took a great deal of meaning from it. To be able to apply that description to most pentecostal situations is a little bit of a stretch to say the least. Except in one profound respect.

FEAR

It is most descriptive of fear.

Perhaps if I have the time I will try to explain what that means to me.

But to finish I would say that the best way of judging spirits is not to go after demonic explanations but to look at men and their visible conduct. In what power are they labouring? If you can judge that righteously by their speech and leading you have a basis for rejecting all deceiving spirits by rejection of the man who labours on their behalf. The rest is just a helmet!

 2013/9/30 20:46









 Re:

Colin

The 'angel of light' must be very convincing and as he was able to present himself before the throne of God in Job, so he is able to intercept even the holiest of times, and lead us on the wrong path. Especially for those who hearts are set on following Christ to the end of the earth.

For myself, I would not risk letting words come from my mouth of which I had no knowledge of their meaning, should I be cursing myself or denouncing the blessing seeing as the state of holiness is the only place where I would be free from deception.

If we are willing for the sacrifice then the fire will fall, if we are not willing then praying to God to make us willing, will enable it. This is the way it was for me. I was afraid and unable to take that step but a prayer to help make me willing was answered straight away and the fire fell. Scripture promises that it is His to will and fulfill

Indeed “Humility is the bloom and the beauty of holiness” but the full bloom is only there when we are actually walking in holiness and not seeking it though there are degrees beforehand.

Andrew I googled that reference but nothing came up. I have many books by Watchmen Nee and none of them mention tongues.

 2013/10/1 2:26









 Re:

Quotes from amrkelly

Quote:
Yet it is an undoubted fact that He does not overwhelm the will and emotions of men and women in order to change them from the outside. Demons do.



Agreed.

Quote:
The life which we receive when we come to Christ is spiritual life as distinct from natural life. This new life passes through the vessel of the soul and is expressed through the physical body itself.



Agreed. And we display supernatural abilities in the physical realm. For example being able to withstand physical beatings.

Quote:
If we were to claim that the Holy Spirit operates through our own spirit independently of our minds and bodies we would have formed a basis for an aesthetic life in which we deny every natural instinct of the body and every activity of the soul as well. Such a life would be extreme and would lead us into a mystical life with no practical outworking whatsoever.



Aestheticism equalling mysticism only exists in the non Christian form of mysticism. In Christian mysticism we are fully engaged with the physical realm and the natural life.

Quote:
What men and women, labouring in their own strength, are in danger of exhibiting and giving out, is their own thoughts and feelings exercised in the power of their own will. If they are fleshy, unrepentant and worse still, greedy and boastful, they will infect the hearer with their own ideas and the one affected will be taken prisoner by the mechanism of their own flesh. If we seek that which is outward and visible and cannot comprehend the necessity for the strengthening of the inner life on a daily basis through repentance and self denial we may find that we will either reject all of the blessing of the Holy Spirit or lay ourselves open to demonic deception working through a man.



Agreed, and wish to reveal that I am not walking in entire sanctification at present and have been undergoing a great trial in case my own thoughts are polluting my words.

 2013/10/1 3:03









 Re:

Copyright ©1971 Christian Fellowship Publishers, Inc. New York
All Rights Reserved

ISBN 0-935008-28-4

Available from the Publishers at:
11515 Allecingie Parkway Richmond, Virginia 23235
PRINTED IN U.S.A.

The contents of this volume comprise a series of messages which were delivered in Chinese by the author during a training period for workers held in Kuling, Foochow, China, in 1948.

The book is entitled

The Ministry of God’s Word

References to and Nee's thoughts about tongues can be found on:
:

Page 15 (Electronic Index) Section Header "Human Elements in Revelation" Paper index reference page 17 Para 2

"Do we know why Paul does not stress that all believers must speak in tongues in the meeting? Yet are not tongues a gift of God? The explanation is because, in the speaking in tongues, man’s thought is not involved. In other words, human thought is not included. This makes it more like the Old Testament ministry than that of the New; because this is God putting unknown tongues on the lips of man. God’s emphasis in New Testament ministry is in bringing into play the human element in the word"


Page 81 (Electronic Index) Section Header "Pertaining to Comprehensive Interpretation" Paper Index reference page 77 line 3

Comprehensive interpretation is especially used by God in the ministry of His word. Let us see how Peter ministered God’s word on Pentecost. A most wonderful thing happened on that day—the Holy Spirit was poured out and gifts were distributed. Man spoke in tongues and many tongues were spoken.


Page 154 (Electronic Index) Section Header "Light Translates into Thought" Paper Index reference page 146 line 6

"How important is the thought life—the mind—in the ministry of the word. How very essential is our understanding! As we learn to be a minister of the word we will see the significance of “understanding” as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14. That chapter draws our attention especially to this matter of prophesying. Why pay such special attention to it? Because prophesying involves understanding. Why is not speaking in tongues emphasized in this chapter? For the simple reason that it does not involve understanding. Verse 14 points this out: “If I pray with a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.”


Page 182 (Electronic Index) Section Header "The Light Within Need Spoken Words for Delivery" Paper Index page 191 para 2

"Let us return to the principle of tongues. Why do we pay attention to this matter? Because in the New Testament Paul compares tongues with prophetic ministry. Why is not the speaking in tongues forbidden? Because it is profitable to the one who speaks in tongues. Yet why is it useless in the ministry of the word? For the simple reason that there is no human understanding and no human element involved in tongues. To speak in tongues depends entirely upon the Holy Spirit, that is, the person speaks with his own spirit as God’s Spirit gives him words. But it is nothing more. To our thinking, tongues may be better than prophecy, for is it not better to speak in God’s own words or in the words of the Holy Spirit? Nonetheless the Bible views tongues as being inferior to prophetic ministry. God places the latter above tongues. A prophetic ministry includes in it God’s word plus the prophet himself. In other words, the living water in the words flows out from the depths of the prophet; it does not pour down from heaven. This is a very fundamental principle in the New Testament."




 2013/10/1 6:10





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