| Poster | Thread | KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
As for you is it then fair to say that your definition/understanding of "prophesy" would be something like-
Prophesy is a supernatural utterance in a known language as inspired by the Holy Spirit that may, or may not, involve a forth telling of future events.
I embrace the classic definition of prophecy and all its dimensions, including "forthtelling" and "fortelling." It's kinda hard to really separate the two in my mind. If you are telling what God has to say, it is only natural you might "predict" what the ramifications of that speech will be.
I personally define prophesy as actively declaring what the mind of Christ is. To speak God's word as if you were Jesus Christ on earth speaking what God has to say. It is "the testimony of Jesus," after all. Of course, this is entirely supernatural and dependent upon the leading of the Holy Spirit. It is definitely a "charismatic" gift. It may involve "thus saith the Lord's" or it might be speech that doesn't involve any such punctions, much as it was in the New Testament, and in reality, much of the Old.
I think it can be a little more broadly defined, and there might be sermons that are given that while not a "prophecy" per say, was definitely "prophetic" in its weight, scope, and tone. Ten Shekels and a Shirt by Reidhead strikes me as "prophetic." Or many Art Katz sermons. Though I wouldn't be so bold as to say every nuance of speech was "God breathed." But such sermons definitely have a mark of "inspiration" upon them.
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PS. I am not on the site very often. However, I have not seen you post in a long time....maybe 2 years? It appears evident to me that you have matured much over whatever time frame it has been. Thanks for responding Bro.
Glad to be back. Thank you! I've not been on much in the last 2 years. I was busy working to death, and teaching 3 times a week in various outlets at church. I also courted my fiance, and we are getting married in 18 days. I've been very busy to say the least, and unfortunately, haven't had much time to get on Sermon Index. I've also been doing a bit of growing up. I'm now 31 years old. When I discovered Sermon Index, I was only 21 or 22 :-)
Lately though my schedule has changed. I just moved, and so without having a formal "ministry" right now, and with things slowing down at work, and with most of the wedding planning being over, I have a lot more free time than I've had in the last couple years. I'm entering a new season right now. So I guess I'm back on here to get refreshed, as I have been busy watering others for a few years now, and definitely am in need of it :-)
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Jimmy H
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|  2013/9/18 13:00 | Profile | dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132
| | Re: amrkelly | | Hey brother:) could you let us know what you really believe?
Just poking fun, but have to stand with ya on this subject.
I do believe that there are "some" public speaking roles women fill and at times from a pulpit too.
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D.Miller
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| | 2013/9/18 13:12 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Saints I believe the OP posed the question can sisters preach in the open air? Can sisters preach the gospel to the lost? I do not believe the OP was addressing the issue of preaching in the "governmental" authority of the church. If this distinction cannot be made then this thread is going to have done confusion. Blaine
The question at the root of the OP by Doug may well have been a question to do with sisters preaching in the open air. If that had been the sum of the post then it really would be a simple matter to answer it. However the body of the OP was:
“The book is about "should women preach in the open air" I believe and his study of the word on this position.
There is a great move in the body of Christ to call women "pastor" and give them a title and a role in the body of Christ.
I talked with my pastor about this and he is of the belief that a women that is in a "governmental" (Authority) position in the church over men is not Biblical.
We left a church many years back because the senior pastor's wife was going to "co-pastor" with Him at the local body.”
In view of this it is both reasonable and necessary to answer the whole thread and not one part. It is particularly important because of the real and substantive implication and effect of sisters taking authority or else being given governmental authority in the local churches. I realise that much of the issue here is divisive, but that is nothing compared to the consequence of confusing missionary work with local church authority. Nor is it as divisive as being naive enough to imagine that there is no intention to render the local churches gender free for a purpose of Satan. How easily we are deluded and deceived! We quote Galatians 3:28 and we imagine we have settled the issue spiritually and thereafter it is a simple matter of finding supporting scriptures. In this we do not see that we are in the world, in a field with both wheat and tares, in the kingdom of God and in Christ also. As long as we are in this field we have to live according to the reality of this field.
Many years ago I spent some time with a brother who was formerly a senior clergyman in the Anglican Church. He had become a local nondenominational pastor having been asked to do so by a number of brethren. He shared an account of three sisters who were very supportive of him in many ways and I could see that he was very grateful for their agreement and support in ministry in the local church. He was a single man. Some months after this time of sharing, this brother wrote me a short note with the words “the church is done to death. Need to take in and not give out”. The bottom line had been a simple one. As long as he didn’t address the issue of local church authority these three sisters supported him. Not only was his well being assured but the church was at peace and flourished. When he preached just once on the need for the sisters to submit to the authority of their husbands and the eldership of the church he was hated. These sisters had invested so much influence in this brother that when the time came for him to break that influence the consequences were devastating. The effect was that within just 3 months they reduced a 14 year work to nothing and divided and scattered the whole church. I know of numerous instances of this and some accounts are truly devilish.
How is this possible? I could tell you from a Satanic point of view and you would be both shocked and offended. Yet reality is what it appears to be sometimes and cannot be changed by weak mindedness and a lack of discernment. Today there is one primary reason why the church is not being done to death in this way. It is because those in authority have given authority to sisters in advance by covenant. This is both to have authority over all the members of the local church but also to exercise that authority without question. No matter what these sisters say it would make no difference whatsoever because those in authority have already given the whole ground over to deception. In short the churches are increasingly apostate. Frankly it matters little anymore whether a sister is given the whole of the authority or not. The deed is already done and the outcome is end time apostasy at the threshold of the door. So long as you are under such an apostate church you will be ill affected yourself.
In contrast I do preach on the streets with sisters who I know have as much a love for the Lord as any one else and their contribution is as valid and meaningful as any brother. Here is the rub for the one who thinks himself wise. These sisters are amongst the brethren they were not biological males. Junia was amongst the apostles she was not an apostle. In the local churches these sisters are submissive and hold their tongues in the churches trusting the Lord according to His governance of His church. They are neither blind nor lacking in discernment. Nor do they desire to rule over the man.
Holding their tongues means in simplicity not seeking to direct doctrine or teaching. Not exercising governmental authority over men with a view to both spiritual as well as governmental authority. No man can resist local church government regardless of who holds that place. Nor ought governance to be confused with spiritual authority. The one is to rule and order the local church for a reason of protecting the flock. The other is to serve and to bear witness for the upbuilding of the flock. Only in the male (elder) can these two things, governance and spiritual authority, come into the same outworking. In a sister they have to be separate. The separation is one that God Himself has ordained and ordered in the church so that apart from an exceptional working of God no sister can have governmental authority over the brothers including their wives and daughters. Otherwise you have made ruin of the very governance of nations and peoples as well. Spiritual authority on the other hand is a gift of life in Christ Jesus outworked in all brethren, both male and female for the benefit of all. Those who overstep that boundary have already made ruin of their calling. Who in their right mind would not thank God for a godly sister who in humility and meekness, and by example and prayer, thought the very best of you and sought the best for you in Christ? Who in a spirit of discernment would not reject heresy and foolishness be it from a male or a female?
"Why does God then [say] that "women are to be silent?" What is the context here? " Doug.
I met a sister recently who had been troubling a pastor for months. She was a gifted woman and in the end I realised that she had a prophetic spirit. I suggested that she needed to comprehend the gift and the calling in her life and hold her tongue. With me from the outset she was in a right attitude and she knew that there was going to be nowhere for her to go if she started trying to manipulate me. She didn’t even try and I spoke the truth to her concerning her own activities. In the end she cannot hold her tongue because she is embittered with the pastor because he failed to comprehend her weakness and the hurt in her life. Had this sister not been gifted at all then there would have been no issue in the church. It would have been a private matter between her and her husband in the home. But precisely because she was a gift to the body she had to hold her tongue. She ought to have exercised a spirit of prophecy in fear of the Lord then she would have been fruitful indeed. In speaking as she did she was putting the gift of God to an ill use and destroying her hearers. Herein lies the root of rebellion. It is in the pain and bitterness of life and the injustices which are levelled against us when we are weak and must submit to others. For wives and for children this is especially true. It has been ordained by God and it is a consequence of what happened in Eden. When men are bitter because of their childhood they too become rebellious. The only remedy is repentance and forgiveness. Having been set on the right path the only possible continuance is to yield willingly to the government of God wherever it is found.
In contrast every gifted male ought to speak in the churches and so speak as to question that which is harmful to the flock in the fear of the Lord. The difference between speaking and being silent is the difference between questioning authority openly (male) in the churches and exercising a gift in submission through the gift of prophecy (female). The open questioning needs no hidden part. The gift of prophecy on the other hand reveals the heart. It may well be heard by all, both male and female but who will understand it if it is by the Spirit and speaks to the hidden heart of just one man? In such a circumstance the gift is fruitful in that the man is made aware of his error and the sister has retained a right attitude. Men have to be heads of their own households from which households are elders come into visibility. To question elders and instruct them or to desire to be an elder as a sister you have in effect questioned every household and taken authority over every man. That is rebellion by any measure. |
| | 2013/9/18 13:15 | | KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Honestly, I think if one closely reads the New Testament one cannot rightly divide the Scriptures and arrive at the conclusion that women are to remain in total silence in a congregational setting. I'm sorry, that's just not taught, and is contradicted by a volume of evidence that says otherwise. But with that said, it is clear that women are exhorted to have a somewhat limited function in the church.
EXACTLY what that means though, I think it is hard to be very dogmatic about, as the New Testament never spells it out very clearly. It would SEEM women should not serve as elders, or if they do, they would serve in a more limited capacity (i.e. to women and children). However, the fact that there were female apostles/missionaries in the New Testament, and women like the one's we see in 2 John 1 serving in a pastoral function, I have a hard time saying that there might not be some exceptions to the general rule laid out in 1 Timothy 3 and in other places.
I think what is clear is that a woman should never attempt to usurp the function and leadership of a man in the church. But beyond that, I think it would be wrong to conclude that women cannot serve in some official ministerial positions within the church, and personally, I find the idea of "Where God lacks men to rise up, He'll appoint women," as if women were some sort of "Plan B" in God's design of the local church, to be something of an insult to God and to women. I don't see God as having a "plan B" in anything.
There is much room for grace in these areas. In all my studies and praying over the subject, I've concluded it's hard to be absolutely dogmatic on the subject. Depending on what day of the week you ask me, I might waffle a bit in my thinking. I've attempted to wrestle with the topic on numerous levels, but I always find myself scratching my head and left wondering about deeper things.
And frankly, although I'd prefer a local church to not have women as pastors, it will definitely never be a deal breaker for me. I understand there are different perspectives on this topic by many sincere Christians who want to do nothing but please the Lord. And personally speaking, I wonder how spiritually healthy somebody really is should they find a woman pastor something worth leaving a church over. So long as the woman is very "pastoral" in her spirit and very sincere in her faith, and gifted with some sort of speaking gift, I will happily recognize her as a pastor in the church.
In particular at my last church, we had one woman on staff who was a pastor. She taught the introduction class at the church. As she went through the denominational statement of faith, she wept through about half of it. The Lord had such a hold of this woman's heart that even dryly worded statements of faith moved her heart to tears at the thought of what our Savior had accomplished.
Give me a 1000 female pastors like that in our churches anyday. I'll charge the gates of hell with her.
*edited and expanded*
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Jimmy H
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| | 2013/9/18 13:22 | Profile | havok20x
Member
Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 980
Pineville, LA
| | Re: | | Scripture is meant to be taken at face value. There is no knowledge outside the Bible that is needed in order to sufficiently understand it. The scriptures are sufficient for our doctrinal positions.
The argument "I don't know what x means, but it can't mean THAT" is a dangerous way to interpret scripture. Forget what our culture says. Women are, Biblically, to remain quiet in the assembly during instruction. Go read all those scriptures I posted earlier and you will see, clearly that there is an order to these sort of things. Are women forbidden from teaching? No! They are not allowed to teach in the church. Older, godly women should be teaching younger women how to honor the Lord per Titus 2 and the rest of the scriptures.
Husbands ought to be instructing their wives on issues they are confused about or have questions about, according to the scriptures. Fathers ought to be teaching their children, according to the scriptures. OUTSIDE OF CHURCH.
Again, if we are going to talk about who is Biblically allowed to lead the church, it is men.
**the following is edited**
One more thing I want to add--a lot of discussion in this thread are viewed through the lenses of the way we "do" church today--rather than the way church happened in the Bible (life-encompassing discipleship of Christians by Christ coupled with day-to-day fellowship of believers in submission to those God has appointed as leaders in the church, who should be of a selfless, servant mindset, being examples for the flock as well as leaders during difficulties, always point to Christ and deflecting glory for themselves.) |
| | 2013/9/18 13:32 | Profile |
| | Re: More Questions | | Elisabeth Elliot was invited by the South American Indians that killed her husband to come back and teach them the way of Christ. She did and her ministry was fruitful. Many nen in that tribe were saved. So was she in rebellion to God?
Jackie Pullenger went to Asia to preach the gospel. She witnessed to many including men. So is she in rebellion to God?
A young woman gifted in linguistics and translation applies to Whcliff to do translation work. So is she in rebellion to God?
Wondering what the forum thinks in this.
Bearmaster.
PS
There are some sho say women are only meant to be wives ans mothers. That single women should not be in missions or evangelism. |
| | 2013/9/18 14:26 | | ccchhhrrriiisss
Member
Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | I would like to add that I have learned quite a bit from women. My wife, my mother, my pastor's wife, my sisters and even women who share their thoughts ("teaching") here on SermonIndex.
If women are not supposed to ever "teach" at all, then why am I able to learn good from women like my wife, sister ginnyrose or Corrie ten Boom?
I just have to wonder about some of the legal requirements of the New Covenant. When the counsel met in Jerusalem, there weren't many requirements about the roles of women that were placed upon Gentile believers.
I am not saying that those are in any way invalid. I just have to wonder if we can see the role of women as anything other than a silent confinement.
I learn quite a bit from my wife. In fact, I have learned more from her (with sharing, prayer and Bible study) than from any other person. Her heart for God is real and pure. People who know her hold her in high esteem. They value her thoughts, opinions and views.
I suppose that there is a difference between sharing and exerting authority. However, there is not much of a line between "sharing" what you know about the Word of God and "teaching."
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Christopher
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| | 2013/9/18 15:12 | Profile | PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | Quote:
I suppose that there is a difference between sharing and exerting authority. However, there is not much of a line between "sharing" what you know about the Word of God and "teaching."
I think you nailed it here. There is a very subtle dynamic between women merely "sharing" and that of "usurping". If we read Paul's the Apostle's teachings on the matter carefully, we'll actually find this at the core, typified at the grass-root level of Adam and Eve. It takes a discerning eye and the wisdom of the Holy Spirit to detect when a woman has spiritually usurped the authority of a man in an organized, religious setting. We've seen it happen right here in the forums.
I believe women who are right with God naturally concede to God's order, and this never becomes an issue. We, as men, can learn many things from our beloved sisters. I wholeheartedly trust my wife's discernment, and there have been instances where she saw hidden things in scripture that I was blind to. God often humbles me through her, and He is able to do this because of her willful concession to my authority as a man, husband, and leader under Christ of our household. It is a natural occurence. We find things become so clear and simple, everything falls into place and the Holy Spirit effortlessly brings light on many things that would be divisive and abstruse otherwise.
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Paul Frederick West
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| | 2013/9/18 15:47 | Profile |
| | | 2013/9/18 17:16 | | KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | It begs the question then: What is "authority" in the church? Who has authority? And what "authority" do they have? I've always found the following verses helpful:
Hebrews 13:7 Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith... 17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.
"Leaders" in the church are regarded as those whose life and teaching match each other, and because of the excellency of the quality of their life, we should obey what they tell us to do and submit to their leadership, for their instruction is given to us in order to teach us how to live the life of faith that they have lived in the Lord.
"Authority," is a word that the New Testament seldom ever associates with ministry, apart from the authority of the Lord in the Gospels. Paul makes mention of the "authority" he theoretically talked about using in 2 Corinthians 13:10 in his apostolic ministry in the context of the church. But as typical of Paul and the apostles, he regularly decided not to assert his authority, although he was aware he could.
"Authority" is a word that essentially means you have the power of choice, or the power to assert your choice. As we saw in Hebrews 13, those who we as believers are to submit to are those who live lives of excellence, and instruct us out of that excellence. Some of the brethren live such saintly lives and provide such outstanding instruction, we identify and appoint such men as "elders" within the church. Collectively, they have the right to show us how the Christian life is supposed to be lived, and instruct us out of that life.
However, even in such official "authority," that would not preclude women from functioning in a very similar manner. Indeed, naturally a woman may function in a very similar manner simply by in frequent fellowship with others, could she not? Could not by simply the excellency of her virtue, could she not just happen to instruct others on how to live the Christian life, and function in the same capacity? And if hell breaks loose and the elders should all fall and the only one's living a godly life in the church happen to be women, who then holds "authority" in the local church? Male elders living in sin, who may go unrebuked, or the saintly women who have kept lives clean?
I would dare say the "authority" rests with those whose lives look like Jesus. The "elders" do not maintain their "authority" just because somebody appointed them to a position once upon a time.
So in regard to the original post, does a woman have the "authority" to preach the gospel in the open air? Absolutely. That is, if her life mimics the life of Christ and the words she speaks issue out of that life. Then by virtue of her being saved and knowing the teaching of the Lord, she therefore has the "authority" to tell instruct those who are outside the church the way they ought to live as well.
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Jimmy H
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| | 2013/9/18 17:59 | Profile |
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