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narrowpath
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Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1067
Germany NRW

 Re: the christian and alcohol

1 Timothy 3:8
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Titus 2:3
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

Why do some people always need either a
"Thou shalt" or "thou shalt not"
as in the OT ruling alcohol, tithing, dress code, sex, etc.

How much alcohol can I drink before I sin?
How long does a skirt need to be?
How much jewelery can I wear?
How much chocolate is allowed?
How much overweight is tolerated by God?
How many bible chapters do I have to read every day?
Can I drive a luxury car?

The revivalist Blumhardt taught that sex was only to be used for procreation, causing much guilt and confusion.

They did not have clean water in the old days, and adding some alcohol was a sensible thing if done in moderation.
When Jesus drank wine then why do we rebuke others for doing the same?
Grape juice does not last long before it goes off in the Meditarranian latitudes.

We can put a legalistic yoke on people by making up rules where the bible is silent or just gives sensible advice.
Why can we not use alcohol in temperance - not much and not given to it.
At the same time be considerate to the weak and do not tempt them, being ready to forgo the liberty we have. That is walking in the Spirit.
Master alcolhol and be not slave to it.

When I have the Spirit, I will do what Jesus would do.

1 Corinthians 2:15
But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

 2013/9/15 15:00Profile
narrowpath
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Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1067
Germany NRW

 Re: the christian and alcohol

deleted duplicate

 2013/9/15 15:00Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

I agree with the sentiment that asking the question of legality tends to expose either a wrong heart, or a misunderstanding of the grace, love, and nature of God. To ask, "Is it legal?" is basically the same as to ask, "Can I get away with this action without putting my trip to heaven at risk?" Or, it is to think that it is by my actions that I obtain or lose right standing with God. It is simply the wrong question.

The right question would be, "Am I, by drinking alcohol, putting an occasion of stumbling in front of a brother or risking the offense of one who, barring my actions, would have come to Christ?" It is to ask if my desire to exercise my freedom in Christ would be damaging to someone else. Paul dealt with this question when he said, "1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1Co 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend."

The issue is not the legality of the issue, but the love of Christ. We are not justified by law, but be grace. Yet grace teaches us to walk in the Spirit, crucify the flesh with its lusts, and walk in the love of God toward those around us.

The Bible does not teach that a Christian should never drink alcohol. It is simply not there. However, it is very clear that we should not be given to much wine, that we should not be gluttonous (wherein is excess), and that we should consider the burdens and weaknesses of our brothers and sisters as much more important than our own desires.

To a certain extent it is cultural. I challenge you to, in America, find an unbeliever and ask them what they think of a Christian who goes to church on Sunday, claims to know Christ, yet keeps a 6-pack in the refrigerator. In almost every case I have found the unbeliever to say that this person is a hypocrite. In our culture, I think to totally abstain should be the rule of the day for believers. However, I am aware of some other cultures where this is not the case, and believers have the occasional drink and see it as perfectly normal.

Where is your heart on the matter? Are you trusting in the grace of God for your righteousness, and are you walking in the Spirit. Has the love of God been shed abroad in your heart? Will you sacrifice your life for the sake of your brother or sister? Do you desire to drink because, "I like it and I have a right"????? I think that puts it in perspective. Use not your freedom as an occasion unto the flesh, but by love serve one another.


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Travis

 2013/9/16 20:19Profile
Koheleth
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Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re: the christian and alcohol

Quote:
i have been studying the book of i timothy as a young pastor, what struck me this week is pauls advice to timothy in 1 timothy 5;23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
NIV
is this scripture consistent with other scripture and does legalize the intake of alcohol like many suggest it



Alcohol is not "illegal" but it does legitimize the intake of alcohol. Whenever your stomach is causing you problems and you are frequently ill, you can consider using "a little wine". Otherwise, there is no good reason to drink wine (or beer or liquor). I know of no professing Christian who uses this verse to justify their alcohol consumption to actually follow the verse.

A side point on your wording above: Timothy was clearly "young" (it doesn't hint at his actual age), but nowhere does it indicate he was a pastor. That is just a tradition of men started by "pastors" who write the Bible commentaries.

 2013/10/1 20:46Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi Koheleth

I do not drink,

Koheleth wrote : ///Whenever your stomach is causing you problems and you are frequently ill, you can consider using "a little wine". Otherwise, there is no good reason to drink wine (or beer or liquor).///

The Bible tells us that Jesus drank alcoholic wine.

 2013/10/1 21:41Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

We, as Christians, walk according to the Holy Spirit abiding within, and not by a letter. The letter says all things are permissable - and this is to include tobacco, alcohol, pork, coffee, chocolate, etc. But we do not walk obsequiously according to the letter, as the nation of Hebrews did in the OT. We have the Holy Spirit to steer our personal boxcars upon the broad rail of the law. He shows us personally and instantly what is expedient for our walks, and what is not. Our consciences bear witness to His influence.

The permissability of alcohol has nothing to do with theology but everything to do with the witness of the Holy Spirit. As soon as we try to cookie-cut either the permissability or prohibition of alcohol (or anything else purposefully left nebulous by God), we suddenly enter into the realm of Phariseeism. The reason for this is God's disdain of man's usurpation of Holy Spirit guidance with groupthink rules. If the Holy Spirit bears down on your conscience that you are not to take a drink, this is His personal instruction to you - notwithstanding the generalized New Covenant allowance of all things being permitted. Another brother or sister may be allowed to take that drink, but for you it is not expedient.

It takes great maturity to at last see this truth - and then to resign oneself to it without exacting judgment toward others. Our natural inclination is to subconsciously legislate, legislate, legislate what other believers can or cannot do. This is legalism 101 and it kills both growth and grace. Very often a young believer will have already heard from the Holy Spirit on a given topic, yet being too immature to heed (or even recognize) the instruction, he instead goes to a venerated teacher, leader, preacher, book for guidance. What they are usually doing is looking for a law: they need a point-blank commandment. Babies need to be spoonfed; adults, however, are able to moderate the food they ingest.

Everyone has heard from God on this topic, leading either to allowance or disallowance. If you are permitted, see that your alcohol consumption does not pose an occasion to stumble another brother. For all things are legal to everyone in Christ, but all things certainly do not edify!


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Paul Frederick West

 2013/10/1 23:49Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi PW,

very well understood and very well articulated.

 2013/10/1 23:54Profile
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Quote:
The Bible tells us that Jesus drank alcoholic wine.



He probably did imbibe relatively minor amounts. But he did not drink only wine. Stopping with the woman at the well is a good illustration. We must be aware that he drank water, something definitely less expensive and generally more available. Finally, the fact that Jesus drank wine in his culture does not mean there is a single good reason for a Christian to drink wine in our culture. Drinking wine is never done for the benefit of others. Paul says that "love for one's neighbor fulfills the Law". Drinking wine (in North America or Europe) can never be an act of love toward one's neighbor, neither is it a necessity.

 2013/10/2 12:25Profile





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