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paps
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Joined: 2011/6/30
Posts: 12


 the christian and alcohol

i have been studying the book of i timothy as a young pastor, what struck me this week is pauls advice to timothy in 1 timothy 5;23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
NIV
is this scripture consistent with other scripture and does legalize the intake of alcohol like many suggest it

 2013/8/25 15:46Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re: the christian and alcohol

Many medicines of this time have either alcohol or certain kind of drug to reduce pain and feel drowsy. There is nothing wrong in consuming them for medical purpose. I always believed even as an unbeliever that consuming alcohols and drugs for pleasure is a degrading act because it causes us to loose our mind. Noah was found naked because of it. Why should someone consume a substance that will cause us to lose our mind when we have the mind of Christ?


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Sreeram

 2013/8/25 20:51Profile
Sidewalk
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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re: Thoughts on the sweet nectar of man's desire

Looking to the scripture to determine whether something is "legal" for Christians is the trailhead of a difficult and twisting path. Alcohol is a dangerous poison, and the ruin of millions of unsuspecting users. "Others may get into trouble, but not me..."

Never the less, the verse in Timothy and the other one in Deut. 14:26 suggest that alcohol may be used for both medicinal and recreational purposes.

But wine is a mocker, and strong drink a brawler- the wise know this and carefully choose another path.

Funny how God's word throws a wrench to derail a legalistic presumption...?


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Tom Cameron

 2013/8/25 21:28Profile
DEADn
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Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

There is also the scenario of when Jesus made water into wine after the wine was gone and everyone had well drunk. What I never understood is why was this done. If wine is alcoholic and drinking enough of it will get you drunk why did Jesus make more? The cheap answer is that the wine wasn't alcoholic. Wine is not wine unless it has alcohol in it. It becomes grape juice then.

John


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John

 2013/8/25 22:39Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: the christian and alcohol

Matthew 11:19
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

 2013/8/25 23:03Profile
Sidewalk
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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re:

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was a misplaced Presbyterian in an Assembly of God bible school, one of the esteemed professors held the approved position that Jesus turned the water into Welch's. The denomination at that time held that there were 5 major and unforgivable sins, and alcohol sat on the top of the list with smoking.

(The other 3 were movies, dancing, and cards.)

So we mischievous students threw the Deuteronomy passage at him, and enjoyed watching him squirm and stammer out his explanation. (We were learning to be good little Pharisees... )

The Psalmist coaxes us to seek out wisdom, sweet and wonderful wisdom! Always better than the trap of legalism, wisdom deals with the real weaknesses of people, and allows God to draw men through the sweet creative paths to Himself only He knows.

Booze is generally just an obstacle.


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Tom Cameron

 2013/8/25 23:25Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE: ///Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was a misplaced Presbyterian in an Assembly of God bible school, one of the esteemed professors held the approved position that Jesus turned the water into Welch's. The denomination at that time held that there were 5 major and unforgivable sins, and alcohol sat on the top of the list with smoking.///


My experience was Similar amoung the Baptist, Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth in the late 90's and early 2000's, it was alcohol and interracial marriage that set at the top.

 2013/8/25 23:43Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7469
Mississippi

 Re: the christian and alcohol

What many proponents of alcohol use refuse to acknowledge is the adjective that precedes the word wine as it appears in this scripture: 1 Tim:5:23 "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." More then little will damn a person - it will cause drunkenness and that is listed in the list of sins that will bar a person from the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:21: "Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.")

AND...the arguments for alcohol use can also be said for narcotics. There is place for narcotics and alcohol in the treatment of pain and physical ailments. Beyond the use of little as Timothy teaches will put one at risk for alcoholism or drunkenness.

Yes, I do get upset when so-called Christians will defend it use because of the devastation alcohol brings to weak people. Rom.14:21 tells us "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak."


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Sandra Miller

 2013/8/26 9:10Profile
Solomon101
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Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 530
America's Heartand

 Re:

And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. Deuteronomy 14:24-26 ESV

It's pretty clear that God commanded that at that time in certain circumstances the tithe be transferred to cash. The money was to then be used to buy refreshments to be enjoyed with gratitude and thankfulness in His presence. In this scripture God Himself gave sanction to the use of wine and strong drink in a limited and God honoring fashion.

It is an undeniable fact that -

- Part of John Calvin's salary was paid each year in a great number of casks of alcoholic wine.

- Martin Luther clearly, and frequently, enjoyed mugs of beer or glasses of wine.

- John Wesley also had ministers sometimes partially paid in portions of rum.

- The Puritan pilgrims found one of the primary reasons to get off the Mayflower was that they had run short of beer. One of their first tasks they undertook was to establish a brewery. In fact a great percentage of the cargo brought with the pilgrims was beer for themselves!

I could list many more examples both Biblically and historically. However, the topic is so emotionally charged for many they can not discuss it. Much less are they able to see anything beyond their own preconceived, and often prejudical, leanings. They are just to emotionally wound up in it. In addition it is virtually impossible for Christians who have staked out a position on a topic to ever change it. That would mean admitting we were wrong. The religious pride is then injured. Very few are ever mature enough to do that.

In the final analysis alcohol is treated the same in scripture as food and sex.
Proverbs in particular gives some insight in this area. It goes like this-

1. Food is from God. Used as He intended it is a great blessing to be enjoyed. Used outside His parameters it is called gluttony and a sin.

2. Sex is from God. It was His idea (gasp!). Used as he intended (one man and one woman for life within the marriage covenant) it is a tremendous blessing. Used outside of His parameters it is fornication, adultery, Sodomy, etc. and a sin.

3. Wine/alcohol is from God. Used as He intended (to gladden the heart of man and be received with thankfulness in His presence) it is a great blessing. Used outside of His parameters it can become drunkenness which He calls a sin.

If the answer a person embraces to avoid drunkenness is to never partake of any alcohol then the they must also refuse all food for fear of gluttony or all sex for fear of fornication. They are treated the same in scripture.

However, if each is used within the God given parameters in scripture then they are blessings from His hand to be enjoyed responsibly in His presence.

Psalm 104:14-16 seems to articulate that balance well-

14. You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man's heart.

It specifically says that one of the reasons that God brings forth plant life from the earth is to create wine to gladden the heart of man.

Seems simple enough.

 2013/8/26 11:34Profile
reformer
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Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re:

Wine has its medicinal purposes but anything that is abused can be a problem. I see plenty of christians smoking, yet that is not in the bible...its obviously not good for you. Its humorous that christians frown so much against alcohol yet excuse or pass on judgements on other things. A person is judged so harshly if he drinks wine, but one doesn't consider proverbs 6:16-19 that is black and white.

Drinking alcohol can destroy lives and can be very dangerous. Some people have very addictive personalities and easily can stumble.

We put wine in some of our sauces for food. Mostly its just cooking wine which is completely different, but have used wine in marinara.

 2013/9/15 11:38Profile





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