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npautsky
Member



Joined: 2003/9/10
Posts: 82
Texas

 Re:

Hello,

Parable of the Sower

Stony Ground - Endures for awhile but when these things come they fall away:

Temptation
Affliction because of the word
Tribulation because of the word
Persecution because of the word

Thorny Ground - These go forth,I believe professing Christ, but these things choke out the word:

Lust for other things
Cares of this world
Pleasures of this life
Deceitfulness of riches

There is much, much, much more here than the oversimplified version you mentioned earlier. Stony unyeilding heart and the thorny unstable heart. That rendering doesn't really allow the plow of the word to dig deep and break up the clods of the heart as Finney says.

I believe in justification by faith, by living faith, but much of what passes for the Gospel nowadays is nothing more than trash having no power to justify. The seed in the parable of the sower is the word of God. That seed will bring forth fruit 100% of the time given the soil,light and moisture are also good. When someone recieves the Gospel with a right heart they are justified by faith like Paul teaches.
The problem is nowadays most people aren't recieving the Gospel at all, but a Man Pleasing counterfeit that goes by the same name. The counterfeit version makes allowances for most of the things in the parable of the sower and the other parables as well. It says, Do you have a problem with temptation, no problem we all sin every day. Lust for other things, Well, God does want us to enjoy life doesn't he? Deceitfulness of riches, hardly touched on as people accept Christ and supposedly recieve assurance of eternal salvation. This Gospel is unable to justify because it is not the word of God,it is mans version of the word of God, worthless, contemptible, powerless to change. Gods word is indeed difficult and if one looks over the parable of the sower and is lead to despair of his or her salvation because they realize they aren't living up to what God said, then praise God, they are on the road to repentance and believing the Gospel. You mentioned that you thought that I might be saying these things with calculation to stir up Gods people unto good works. I simply see these things as the starting place to following the Jesus of the Bible.

In saying this, I would like to say something about Grace. I believe whole heartedly in being saved by grace from start to finish. I believe it is nothing but God's grace that puts it in the heart to seek to know him. While we are on the parables, let me say this. If a person reads through them and realizes that they are in fact loaded up with sins but they recieve the word and receive a love for the truth then no matter how much open outright sin they struggle with daily they will come through it because the seed of the word of God is good and always bears fruit in the right soil. Also the Lord is very gentle with those that receive him, so gentle as not to break a bruised reed and not to quench a smoking flax. No matter how many struggles a person has with sin, if they will hold on to faith in Christ he will help them to overcome. Jesus also said blessed are those that mourn, because if you are mourning over your own sinfulness then you are on the right path if your faith is in him to overcome. But woe unto them that do evil that put light for darkness and darkness for light, those who do violence to the law (would be Gospel nowadays). Woe be to those who incorporate their lusts into their faith, woe be to those that incorporate sinfulness into their faith. It is a dead faith having no saving power.

You said somewhere in your message that I thought justification by faith was just a crafty plot by the devil to fool the saints. I know thats not exactly what you said but I can't find it now. But you hit the nail on the head. I believe what passes for justification by faith nowadays for the majority of professing Christians is in fact a crafty plot by the devil.

Blessed be the name of the Lord for his great mercy toward us all in giving us the Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ.

God bless.


_________________
Noel Pautsky

 2005/3/28 1:18Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
There is much, much, much more here than the oversimplified version you mentioned earlier. Stony unyeilding heart and the thorny unstable heart. That rendering doesn't really allow the plow of the word to dig deep and break up the clods of the heart as Finney says.



Finney is right to an extent in his concept of stirring up the fallow ground, however, once a person has gotten back to the love they had a first for God it is time to walk with God and allow the Holy Ghost to do the searching and convicting. My problem with Finney's theology and the reason I will fight it to the death is because it militates against the cross of Christ and places the work in the hands of the man instead of in the hands of God where it belongs. If you read his works enough you will find that NO ONE would ever make it to heaven based on his theology. Not even Finney would make it based on Finney's version of Justification. Finney needed the blood as much as us. He was saved because of the blood- not his own obedience.

How is man perfected? "For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14) The question then becomes; who are the 'sanctified?' Once we know that we then might ask; 'can a person forfeit their sanctification?' Because the passage clearly states that by the blood of Christ the sanctified are perfected forever.

Quote:
The problem is nowadays most people aren't recieving the Gospel at all, but a Man Pleasing counterfeit that goes by the same name. The counterfeit version makes allowances for most of the things in the parable of the sower and the other parables as well. It says, Do you have a problem with temptation, no problem we all sin every day. Lust for other things, Well, God does want us to enjoy life doesn't he? Deceitfulness of riches, hardly touched on as people accept Christ and supposedly recieve assurance of eternal salvation.



There is no doubt that the message preached today is often in error. Yet, a Gospel of legalism is equally error and will level anathama on the head of the preacher. We cannot have a mixture of law and grace any more than we can have a mixture of worldliness and grace. They are opposite errors, but both are error. The remedy is not to try to balance the scales by going into extreme legalism and fighting against God's grace. The answer is to preach a 'real Gospel' that will meet people where they are and set them free from Sin and set them on a course to love God with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves.

Quote:
No matter how many struggles a person has with sin, if they will hold on to faith in Christ he will help them to overcome. Jesus also said blessed are those that mourn, because if you are mourning over your own sinfulness then you are on the right path if your faith is in him to overcome. But woe unto them that do evil that put light for darkness and darkness for light, those who do violence to the law (would be Gospel nowadays).



I believe a person can walk in perpetual victory over besetting sins. I can personally testify to God doing it in our lives. But this is a million miles from true perfection and holiness.

I have ministered victory over sin all of my Christian life. Where I have a problem is when Entire Sanctification is made the qualification for our name being written in the book. What if one of us were snapped out into eternity and was just in an argument that did not please the Lord; are we damned? Do we cease to be a child of God when we miss the mark? Now, I would certainly not want to die living in any of the sins of the flesh. But, what about other things that don't please God? What about things we do and we are hardened in them?

Quote:
You said somewhere in your message that I thought justification by faith was just a crafty plot by the devil to fool the saints. I know thats not exactly what you said but I can't find it now. But you hit the nail on the head. I believe what passes for justification by faith nowadays for the majority of professing Christians is in fact a crafty plot by the devil.



It is odd that in the writings of Paul he addresses legalism with more fury than license. He said he wished that the teachers of law were even "cut off that trouble you." What did he mean by that? Did he mean accursed from Christ? That is strong language.

At the end of the day we have to let the Holy Ghost be the Holy Ghost. He will convince of Sin. He will convict. And when He convicts we must repent. He will put His finger on things. But I do not believe Christians should be overly occupied with digging around to find more and more sin in their life. When was the last time anyone reading this thread repented for not having the 'joy' of the Lord? When was the last time anyone repented for not having the 'peace' of God? If you spend your days trying to be the Holy Ghost you will have neither joy or peace.


In closing let me say that I grew up under a "Finney type" theology (a form of Oberlin). I know what it is to hear preaching and teaching that says if you were killed doing 56 miles per hour in a 55 mile per hour zone you would be in hell. As a child of 8 and 9 years old I would confess my sins in trembling at the hell fire preaching. As a result I never knew God as a loving God. I only ever knew Him as a God who was looking for a reason to damn my soul- rather than one who died to save it. I was the victim of a lot of really bad theology and I still have it flowing in my veins. The old saying is "No sin will enter heaven." I have heard that till I'm sick. Duh! If no sin enters heaven it will not be because I was righteous, but it will be because the blood cleansed it! The blood was sprinkled on everything in heaven and going 'into' heaven. Personally I am walking in the greatest level of victory over sin in all my Christian life; but I am under no illusions to my need for the blood. I need the blood and so do you. Preach the blood. Preach the cross.

Anyone here believe they could stand in the presense of God right this moment without the blood? How about if we give you 6 months to get your act together? You would be smote dead in an instant without the blood and that will never change. Do I believe in holiness? More than you will ever know. has 'Finney's' theology gotten me there? Absolutely not. All it ever did was cause me to fear my condition while God was molding me into His image. I wish I had knew then that the rough edges were covered by the blood. My Christian life had been a lot more pleasant and those who knew me would have know a lot more joyful and peacful Christian. instead they saw 10 years of a long face and few smiles.

God Bless,

-Robert



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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/3/28 8:13Profile
npautsky
Member



Joined: 2003/9/10
Posts: 82
Texas

 Re:

Hello again,

Quote:
It is a grievous error to assume that the words of Jesus are after all more important, and therefore more binding, than the words of the Apostles



Without going into any long explanation of what I was saying and with the assurance that I am not trying to promote some rigid doctrine on how to interpret the bible, Here are a few scriptures that seem at least a little to bolster up what I was saying.

Mark 4:13
And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Deuteronomy 4:9,10
Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons; 10 SPECIALLY the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.

The Parable of the Sower is foundational to understanding the other parables and like I was saying even to understanding the rest of the Bible. Jesus rated understanding and living out Judgement, Mercy, and Faith more important than tithing tho he didn't say tithing wasn't important. Moses counseled Israel to pay attention to how they lived and what they had seen of the hand of the Lord, but to pay especially close attention to the day when the Lord talked to them on the mount. Here's an afterthought. Maybe we should pay especially close attention this time around when the Lord talked to us on the mount... The Sermon on the Mount.

Simply put, I am saying that it might not be such a bad idea to keep the parables in mind when studying the justification doctrines of the Apostles.


_________________
Noel Pautsky

 2005/3/28 14:40Profile
npautsky
Member



Joined: 2003/9/10
Posts: 82
Texas

 Re:

Hello,


Quote:
How is man perfected? "For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14) The question then becomes; who are the 'sanctified?' Once we know that we then might ask; 'can a person forfeit their sanctification?' Because the passage clearly states that by the blood of Christ the sanctified are perfected forever.



Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Just a casual observation, please don't hold me to a rigourous scrutinizing of this but, could it be that God has both made a way for a man to be sanctified forever if he so chooses and because of mans freewill also to be able to forfeit his eternal sanctification if he so chooses? I don't want to run this into the ground but it sure fits hand in glove with what Jesus taught about the stony/thorny soil in the parable. The stony soil person infact endured for a while and while he chose to abide in Christ he must have been sanctified until later testing came upon him. The parable speaks so much more of a process to me than of a one time prayer of faith. Actually I guess I believe that the one time prayer of faith is just the beginning of a persons salvation and if they endure until the end then they shall be saved.
Though anytime along the path they can know that they are saved if they believe in the cleansing blood of Jesus and are obeying the Gospel. I do believe obedience is necessary, I do not believe that the blood of Jesus will ever sanctify disobedience.

Romans 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Please be patient with my comments as my understanding of many of these things is also imperfect.


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Noel Pautsky

 2005/3/28 15:58Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Parables, the Spirit, and a cup of coffee

Quote:
Please be patient with my comments as my understanding of many of these things is also imperfect.


Me too brother. Considering the deep level of scriptural understanding shown in these forums, I feel a little underdressed when I show up.

Frankly I appreciate your approach to discussing matters. You were willing to talk openly about Justification being tied to Sanctification even though you knew it may not be popular. There are too many people who have the same thoughts you do who try to express themselves through the code of grace. Their approach only breeds confusion. You and Finney share a common integrity...you aren't stealthy in what you are saying.

Regarding your exhortation to study the Parables of Jesus. May I listen to you all the more on this subject dear brother! You would have my feet on solid ground. The parables teach us about the Kingdom of which I am glad to be a citizen! I know Christians who worship a sacrificial lamb that never needed to have reach manhood and preached at all. For them, it would be sufficient if the baby Jesus flew straight away from His manger in Bethlehem to Golgotha to be nailed in swaddling clothes on the cross for our sins! There are sadly too many Christians who have little interest in Jesus' words of eternal life, only His precious blood.

You also observed correctly to me...
Quote:
The problem is nowadays most people aren't recieving the Gospel at all, but a Man Pleasing counterfeit that goes by the same name. The counterfeit version makes allowances for most of the things in the parable of the sower and the other parables as well.



Amen. Yet, there is another side to this wooden nickel! With many zealous advocates for "holiness" I sincerely wonder, if there is a line crossed from religous legalism into rank unbelief of the gospel. The old wineskin has a hard time with the new wine. Not that I presume to identify the wheat from the tares but there are basically two counterfeit gospels. A self-fulfillment Gospel that secretly opposes holiness (Colossians 3:1-5) and a self-justification gospel that secretly opposes grace.(Colossians 2:11-20) There are many debtors' religions, like Finneys' for instance, that remind me of what they used to say about the little dirt-water town I grew up in; "It ain't hell, but you can see it from there."

"Whenever he (The Christian) sins, he must, for the time being, cease to be holy. This is self-evident. Whenever he sins, he must be condemned; he must incur the penalty of the law of God ... The Christian, therefore, is justified no longer than he obeys, and must be condemned when he disobeys or Antinomianism is true ...In these respects, then, the sinning Christian and the unconverted sinner are upon precisely the same ground (Systematic Theology p. 46)."

"The substitutional atonement "assumes that the atonement was a literal payment of a debt, which we have seen does not consist with the nature of
the atonement ... It is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure
the salvation of any one" p.217)."

""But for sinners to be forensically pronounced just, is impossible and absurd... As we shall see, there are many conditions, while there is but one ground, of the justification of sinners ... As has already been said, there
can be no justification in a legal or forensic sense, but upon the ground of
universal, perfect, and uninterrupted obedience to law. (pg. 320)"

One thing about I have to admit about Finney is that he wanted to stir up good works. You know, I think that is true of many who are called to be evangelists and prophets. Perhaps they are good balances to those gifted in teaching, for whom correct belief is so paramount, that some are tempted to overlook correct action. Yet, many evangelists and propheticaly gifted brothers should be mindful to submit their spirit to the spirit of Truth, and preach ALL of the law, including the promise. (Luke 24:44, Gal.4:21) Otherwise, in their zeal to see good works they may censor the the Holy Spirit, giving birth to bondage and not faith. Though we are eager to see fruit, Jesus warned us that the seed would fall on different soils.

Speaking of the Sower Parable...
Quote:
There is much, much, much more here than the oversimplified version you mentioned earlier.



I agree. My problem is that I am so worried about creating gigantic lengthy posts (like this one) that I strive to simplify things. I don't want to burden you with hours of reading! If you and I were to ever sit down and discuss this parable over a cup of coffee I think we would find much more to agree on then disagree. In fact, I apologize if I seemed harsh on your rendering of this parable.

But our two perceptions do reveal some basic theological differences and perhaps personal experiences. You see, I cannot help but believe that the reason you and I are like the soft soil is because of the grace of God. The two ingredients that constituted life in me are His...the Seed and the Rain. If I were the stony soil, I simply could not care to become otherwise. The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor. 2:14).Only the fertile soil, with it's stones and thorns plowed by the Word, cares to stay fertile. I did not recieve the Spirit by my works, but by the hearing of faith. (Gal. 3)

This is where Finney and I will have to part ways...I believe salvation is born from the Holy Spirit's initiative and not mans. Do I believe in free will? I am responsible to obey the Spirit; without whose power I am left with empty philosophy and maddening principles. Yet, when the Holy Spirit convinces me of sin, and calls me to repent, I am grateful and eager to act by the power of conviction before I quench the precious presence of my Lord. That is what Isaiah 44 meant to me...There is life only because the Holy Spirt rains down on my heart. I have no illusions about my fleshly ability to be "fruitful in every good work." (Col.1)

This is the spirit in which I see all the parables. Jesus says that we will know a tree by it's fruit. Well, I don't imagine that an apple tree can decide to produce oranges, even if the farmer hates apples and wants oranges. Only an orange tree can produce oranges. Jesus said we will know the tree by it's fruit, which is not at all the same as saying that a particular tree can produce different kinds of fruit, according to it's zeal. If I, as an apple tree am able to bear oranges, it's because that which had been born from an apple seed has died and been removed by the plower, so that the sower could plant an orange tree seed in it's place! Praise God!

Likewise with the virgins and the lamps. I don't imagine the lamps to be full of my virtuous works...we are told to keep our lamps full or to go and buy from those who sell. I think that is referring to those prophets and apostles who foretold of Christ. (1 Peter 1:10) We are to let their message fill our hearts with a divine fuel for light. The oil is the filling of the Holy Spirit who therefore bears witness that I am a child of God and empowers me to live as that child. (1 Peter 1:13) He annoints me with the power and encouragement of His Spirit in the presence of my enemy. (Let's get that cup of coffee to really discuss this...)

I fear all of this may sound loathesome to you. Just know that I am not advocating "empty believism." You and I are comrads in arms, shoulder to shoulder in opposition to those who preach dead intellectual claims will save men from the wrath of God. I am saying that to be saved from death unto life we must be born of water and of the Spirit. The water cleans the outside to be sure...which is pleasing to men---but the Spirit cleanses the inside which is pleasing to God.

In closing, I appreciate the sincerity of our conversation. We are discussing the most important subject matter! Your questions have already helped me to grow in my love for the parables. There is so much to learn, that a million years from now we will still be in awe and marvel over the mystery of the Gospel made known to us. They say that conflict produces friendship. I know our "conflict" was slight but I hope our friendship will grow. If you actually read this whole thing, then I really do owe you a cup of coffee!

Blessings brother,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/3/29 3:10Profile
npautsky
Member



Joined: 2003/9/10
Posts: 82
Texas

 Re:

Hello,

Thanks for your kind words, they are greatly appreciated. Thanks for the generous offer of your friendship-Accepted. Looks like we may have some conflicts in understandings, but certaintly not in personalities. I guess I am about out of things to say today, except that you need to chalk me up for 2 cups of coffee because I read your post twice.

God bless


_________________
Noel Pautsky

 2005/3/29 15:04Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:Jesus and Basketball

Thanks!

I'll tell you the truth. This conversation has been really good for me. You have given me so much to think about; my spirit is still churning. In this life or the next we'll share those cups of coffee brother!

During the course of our conversation I came across a great book called Jesus: An Intimate Portrait of the Man, His Land, and His people. (It's a novel based on the harmonized gospels.) I picked it up mainly because our conversation has renewed my interest in the record of Jesus' teachings and earthly ministry. I plan on reading it alongside the actual gospels to get some fresh bread...

Discussing scriptures like this reminds me of when I play basketball. My actual skill level never matches the fantasy in my own head but I sure do love the exercise and fellowship! Even if all of my shots are bricks and my passes are out of bounds, I enjoy the opportunity to work my flabby muscles!

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/3/29 18:49Profile
npautsky
Member



Joined: 2003/9/10
Posts: 82
Texas

 Re: Repent

Hello All,

I have came thus far, I am going to press this matter home. I don't know what most of you people think about what I've been saying. If I had my guess I would imagine that most of you just shake your heads and maybe even pray for me. Maybe one or two hear what I am saying. For any of the few that may take me seriously, I hope what follows will help convince you that I am telling you the truth.

A little over 25 years ago I had a dream. I had been baptized in the Holy Ghost just about a year at the time. One night I had been on my knees praying to God for about 3 or 4 hours earnestly seeking Gods face. I went to bed and had this dream.

I was in a room alone sitting on the floor when I saw a little white kitten coming toward me. It was right at that age when they are 5 or 6 inches long. It was so white, so gentle looking and so innocent looking. This impression was a big part of the dream, a cute cuddly innocent looking little white kitten was walking toward me.
My hand was laying palm down on the floor in front of me. The little innocent looking kitten came closer and went to reach out its little paw and put it on the back of my hand. Right at that moment I heard a voice that I can only describe as the Spirit of God say "This kitten is evil". As I was saying I had been saved about a year and at that time in my life I had come up with a method of dealing with evil. Every time I would have any kind of problem at all, I would say the name JESUS. So here is what happened, the little kitten walked up close to me and went to put its little paw on the back of my hand, and having just been told that the kitten was evil, I said the name of JESUS. Then there appeared what seemed to be a sheet of glass between the back of my hand and the kittens little paw, its paw just slid off the glasslike barrier that had appeared on the back of my hand. Well, then it started all over. The little kitten approached me again and went to put its paw on the back of my hand and I heard the voice say "This kitten is evil". The exact same thing happened again. As the kitten went to put its paw on the back of my hand I said Jesus and the glass shield again appeared on my hand and the kittens paw slid off without ever touching my hand at all. Twice it happened like that, exactly the same. Now for the third time this little white kitten is approaching me, it reaches out its paw to touch the back of my hand, but something was different this time. Instead of hearing a voice saying "This kitten is evil" I found myself right in the middle of thinking " How could this little, innocent looking kitten be evil?" The little white innocent looking kitten immediately changed into the face of a loud, large, roaring lion. The face of the lion was so big that it filled my whole field of vision and the roar was so loud that immediately I awoke from my dream.

I know this was a genuine dream from God.
The meaning was clear to me. Satan cannot touch you if you listen to and obey JESUS. If the Holy Ghost, or my conscience, or the Bible tell me something is evil, no matter how innocent or seemingly insignificant or harmless that it may seem, It is wise to listen, regardless of appearances. A fool trusts in his own heart. The little kitten was one and the same as the roaring lion, and of course the roaring lion was our adversary the devil walking about seeking whom he may devour.

This dream teaches nothing the bible doesn't already teach. We had all better be careful about sin. No matter how innocent looking. For a final thought I will finish with this, I pray that it may bring conviction to some.

We as Christians are all familiar with the evil of abortion and the arguments of the other side. How that the fetus is not viable and so it is not really a child that is being murdered, and so the abortionist in their minds are innocent.
We as Christians are all dumbfounded how anyone could actually put forth such an idiotic argument. Then finally we reach the right conlusion, These people don't care about the argument, but it is the evil lifestyle that they will say anything to justify. It is obvious to all of us. If they don't repent, one day they will surely cry "How could I have believed something so stupid?" and then at that moment the truth will be staring them in the face. They wanted to believe a lie. They loved their sinful lifestyle more than the truth.

Now we are down to the end and I have this to say. The Lord has said to keep your hand from doing any evil, we know that he said to cut off our hand if it causes us to sin. The psalmist says " I have turned my feet from every evil way that I may keep thy commandments". Again and again we are counseled in the new testament to be Holy, to be pure, and finally to have no part dark, and give no place to the devil. A problem has arisen among God's people and touches not a few. When someone comes along and actually expects them to do what the bible says, they are immediately called a legalist. The effect being this, that in the area where they are being held accountable they find themselves able to ignore the counsel, and yet keep up their Christianity because this persons counsel not to do evil has been discounted because he is considered by the majority to be a legalist. This is a lie straight from hell, and worse than the lie that the abortionist believes. One day these people are going to come face to face with the truth and will have to admit that the real reason they called the person a legalist wasn't because of their great concern for the doctrine of Christ, but because what the person was saying, if followed would cut into their lives, and the evil thing would have to go. They would need to die to themselves in that area just as Christ taught that we would need to do every day if we are to be his disciples. It is a big lie, don't believe it. Repent and touch not the evil thing.
Because I am Holy says the Lord.




_________________
Noel Pautsky

 2005/3/30 23:35Profile





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