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 Re:

Very good Ron, that is the truth. Jesus wasn't talking about natural h2o, but something much more real than that. Thank you for bringing that out, well done!

Karl

 2005/3/22 20:42









 Re:

Actually Paul and Ron answered it quite nicely.

The water is the Word, the Spirit is the holy Spirit.

"Sprinkling with clean water", the word sprinkling denotes that the word would be given little at a time. "precept upon precept line upon line, here a little, there a little" It would be a daily thing and not all at once like the outpouring of the holy Ghost.

"Give us this Day our daily bread", little by little.

There is a hint that Paul gives us that one is NOT born again instantly but over a period of time.

Karl

 2005/3/22 20:51
dohzman
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 Re: ???????

edited


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D.Miller

 2005/3/22 22:16Profile
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 Re:

Quote:



There is a hint that Paul gives us that one is NOT born again instantly but over a period of time.

Karl


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D.Miller

 2005/3/22 22:20Profile
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 Re:

I keep messing up---I'll get it right though. You statement on not being born instantly is in accurate ---1Jn 2:12-14 Are we talking about the maturation process or and event? Being born of the Spirit--i.e.> "Born Again" is a punctillier event, a one time event, much like an exclamation point! in a sentence. What is being talked about in the sprinkling of water is 2 fold: 1)We live in a fallen world and as such we need washing by the word for our minds/consciences/spirit/ the Word of God has a regenerative effect in and of it self on all 3 levels 2) Your point about being built up line upon line and precept upon precept here a little there a little is acurate if your talking about the PROCESS of maturing a believer who has already been born again, the flesh recieves not the things of the spirit. Bro.Daryl


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D.Miller

 2005/3/22 22:29Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
"Sprinkling with clean water", the word sprinkling denotes that the word would be given little at a time. "precept upon precept line upon line, here a little, there a little" It would be a daily thing and not all at once like the outpouring of the holy Ghost.

If you recall OT sprinklings, they all took place in a matter of seconds. No sprinklings ever took place over a period of days. Blood, oil and water were used for sprinkling. I don't think you would want to say that Christ's blood cleanses us 'not all at once', would you? Sprinkling is a symbolic representation of the whole not an indication of 'salvation on the instalment plan'. WKIP


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Ron Bailey

 2005/3/23 3:58Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

Healingwaters wrote:
The water is the Word, the Spirit is the holy Spirit.


...not arguing that point neccesarily, just wondering what your (and others) interpretation then of these verses is in 1 John 5 -

"For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one."

don't know if that adds anything to the discussion!?

 2005/3/23 4:42Profile
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 Re:

nimble
This verse must be significant. We sometimes forget that the gospel of John and his letters and the Revelation were all written close together in time, and almost 30 years after the rest of the New Testament.

The verse is difficult because of questions about the verse which precedes it. It is not in most manuscripts, not even Bizantine. The verse should probably read something like this, with the italicised words being unlikely to have been in the originals...
1Jo 5:6-9 MKJV [b]This is He who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water only, but by the water and blood. And the Spirit is He who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth. (7) For there are three that bear witness[/b] [i]in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. (8) And there are three that bear witness on the earth:[/i] [b]the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three are into the one. (9) If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater. For this is the witness of God which He has testified about His Son.[/b]
1Jo 5:6-9 YLT [b]This one is he who did come through water and blood--Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; and the Spirit it is that is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth, (7) because three are who are testifying [/b][i]in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these--the three--are one; (8) and three are who are testifying in the earth ,[/i] [b]the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one. (9) If the testimony of men we receive, the testimony of God is greater, because this is the testimony of God that He hath testified concerning His Son.[/b]


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Ron Bailey

 2005/3/23 5:54Profile
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 Re:

Oh yes, that rings a bell now.. I remember something about that not ideally being used as explicit scriptural evidence for the Trinity. Interesting though... so does that support the idea that the water = word = Jesus? I always thought the water was generally to do with the Spirit ("Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.” By this he meant the Spirit... John 7 v 38) but Jesus clearly isn't being tautological in the originally quoted passage.. is he?

Well, I'm now feeling well out of my depth! So I'll leave it to you guys who actually know what you are talking about ;)

 2005/3/23 6:46Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Well, I'm now feeling well out of my depth! So I'll leave it to you guys who actually know what you are talking about ;)

You can fool some of the people... (Winston Churchill)
I wonder if we dig into this verse a bit where it will lead us and how it might connect with John 3. This is a ‘thinking aloud’ document! There are 3 things mentioned, water, blood, Spirit. The last part of the section says that ‘the three’ all agree 'into one'; that is to say they all combine their witness in one purpose. (the words witness, record, testimony are all translations of the same Greek word - martureō - to bear witness) This verse is going one better than two witnesses which would normally be required for evidence and the witness of all three, water, blood, spirit is unanimous.

The 'witness' is to the person of Jesus Christ. How are we to understand this? As the topic opens we have the 'three'; [u]w[/u]ater, [u]b[/u]lood, [u]S[/u]pirit. I notice that although the 'three' are not always in the same order...
ie. in verse 6 we have (w+b)+ S
whereas is verse 8 we have S + (w+b)
...water and blood are always in the same relationship to each other. (w+b) seems to be an identifiable unit. It is literally 'the water and the blood'.

Verse 6 speaks of Christ 'having come'. This is an Aorist participle and has the sense of a completed event. Now what can 'having come' refer to, particularly in that such a 'coming' was 'by' (dia-through) (w+b)? verse 20 of this chapter says;And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (1Jo 5:20 KJV)That ‘the life’ was manifested in Christ is one of John’s themes;And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. (Joh 1:31 KJV)

Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? (Joh 14:22 KJV)

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (Joh 17:6 KJV)

(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) (1Jo 1:2 KJV)

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. (1Jo 3:5 KJV)

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jo 3:8 KJV)

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. (1Jo 4:9 KJV)It seems that this is what has ‘come’ the manifestation of a life which had witness born to it by water, blood and Spirit.

Other than in 1John 1:7 'blood' is only used in these two verses in this letter. 'Blood' on its own like this is usually short-hand for the work done on the cross. So can we add that value into our equation? that Christ 'came' through (water and 'the redeeming work of the cross')

John Baptist's specific role was prepare the setting in which Christ could be made manifest to Israel.And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. (Joh 1:31 KJV)and it was at His baptism that this took place. So I think we have a value for 'water' here too; baptism. This was the setting in which the Father first 'witnessed' to the identity of the Son. If this is the case 'the water and the blood' are the borders of His earthly ministry; in terms of geography, Jordan and Calvary.

How is 'the blood' an event in which the Father bore witness to the Son? One of the first things we hear about ‘blood’ in the Scripture is that it speaks; And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. (Gen 4:10 KJV)

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Heb 12:24 KJV) So Christ’s ‘blood’ speaks and ‘bears witness’. The physical cross, that took place in time and space, is the outward working of an inward and invisible spiritual reality where the blood (the redeeming death of His Son) was brought into heaven’s Holy of Holies. This is the great theme of Hebrews 9, but the whole of Hebrews is a proof of the identity of the Son of God. ((KJV) Heb1:2; Heb1:5; Heb1:8; Heb2:6; Heb3:6; Heb4:14; Heb5:5; Heb5:8; Heb6:6; Heb7:3; Heb7:28; Heb10:29; Heb11:17; Heb11:24; Heb12:5; Heb12:6;)

The Spirit is certainly a witness to His identity and person. who was marked out the Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; (Rom 1:4 MKJV) The word translated ‘declared’ is more accurately translated in the Jay Green Modern KJV.

So we have a three-fold witness to the identity of the life of the Son of God manifested in Jesus Christ; The Father, who spoke at His ‘water’ baptism. The Son who presented His own blood in His sinless, redeeming, death, and the Spirit who, by raising Him from the death, testified to His identity as the Son of God. The three witnesses are unanimous in their testimony. The three witnesses also mark three key points. The Son of God is not only He who was declared so as He came out of the ‘water’, but who accomplished redemption as the Son, and who is raised by the Spirit, as the Son. Is this the ‘full identity’ of the life that was manifest? If it had only been ‘by water’ it would have been incomplete in its manifestation. The death of Christ was the greatest manifestation of the life of the Son of God.

The Christ to whom ‘the three’ bear witness, is the one whose identity is set forth in all three events, and the three events themselves describe who He is; the Son of God whose life perfectly pleased the Father, the Son of God whose perfect life was given in a redeeming sacrifice which achieved atonement and reconciliation, the Son of God who lives in the resurrection power of an endless life. The Son of God to whom ‘the three’ bear unanimous testimony is He whose perfect life pleased the Father, whose perfect life paid the ransom, and whose perfect life is continually manifested in the person and work of the Holy Spirit.

This may seem to have run on from the original question, but I think it lends some support to the view that ‘born of water’ is a link with ‘water baptism’ rather than ritual cleansing.

OK guys n gals, “destruction test” it!


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Ron Bailey

 2005/3/23 13:56Profile





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