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 Re:

Quote:
In God’s Kingdom, Jesus is Lord, in the world satan’s kingdom self is lord.



The kingdom of heaven is like unto a field. The field is the world. So said Jesus.


Is the world therefore the kingdom of heaven? It is possible to play games Colin all day long. When will you actually address the heresy in this doctrine of entire sanctification and stop plying with words?

 2013/8/6 11:32
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote by armkelly: It is possible to play games Colin all day long. When will you actually address the heresy in this doctrine of entire sanctification and stop plying with words?

Last post - I am not playing games, thanks for time..


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Colin Murray

 2013/8/6 12:39Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1711


 Re: Entire sanctification A necessity by Dougan Clark, M. D.

There are lot of mistakes in this article. Let me point one by one by quoting scripture.

Quote:

First, through repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, we are converted. Our past sins are pardoned, and we are born again. After that, our sole business is to grow in grace, and by this growth to approach nearer and nearer to the standard of entire sanctification, but never even suppose that we can reach that standard until the moment of death.



The article states that the above quoted growth is unscriptural. I disagree with it. It is the only way to grow in Christ.

The article agrees that there is a growth in Grace. Yes there is. Justification is only introduction to grace (Romans 5:2), sadly for many Christians Justification is beginning and end of Grace. After we are justified we need to grow in Grace. Which means we need to increase in our reception of Grace.

To understand Grace we need to know the definition of Grace. Grace does not mean literally 'what we do not deserve'. This life itself I do not deserve so does that mean my life is grace? Bible says Grace and Truth came through Jesus. Which means grace was missing before Jesus came. So grace should be something more than a literal definition - 'what we do not deserve'.

Exact definition of grace is in Hebrews 4:16-Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Grace is simply help at the time of Need. We grow in grace as we seek more and more help from God. Who is the one who seek help? the one who is broken and acknowledges his inability. A man who thinks he is strong will not ask for Help. That is why a newly born again believer does not get much grace. He thinks he is strong enough to overcome sins. But once he is broken after repetitive failure he acknowledges his lack of strength and seeks grace.

That is why God gives his grace to Humble (1 Peter 5), who acknowledge their inability and ask for help. The more we walk with God, God will show us more sins in our life. Hence we will seek more help and receive more grace. There are 2 kinds of Sins, conscious and unconscious sins. Conscious sin is the one that we are aware of committing. Once we ask for Help we will receive help in overcoming it. It is a lie if we tell that we will overcome it only after death. We will receive Help like promised in Hebrews 4.

Unconscious sins are those that we commit without knowing. God will reveal it to us the more we walk with him. Once we identify it we need his help to overcome it. Christian life is this continuous walk where we keep cleansing ourself until death or until Jesus comes.

1 John 3:2 - We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.


Based on the above scripture this quoted part of article is lie.
Quote:
If it is free from sin it cannot be more free from sin. An empty vessel, as some one has said, cannot be more empty. There can be no increase in purity.



Purity is based on what you see with. A vessel might appear pure when seen with naked eye but when seen with Microscope you will know the germs in it. As we walk more with God we see our heart more clearly and find impurity in it. This is what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 4.

For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.

By Paul's eye his heart or Conscious is absolutely clear or clean but he does not judge himself Righteous or achieved entire sanctification, because God is the one who is looking into his heart and his standard is way higher. When he looks into my heart with higher resolution eye he can see impurity that I do not know now.

1 Peter 1:19 says - Grace that comes at the revelation of Jesus.

The more Jesus is revealed to us, the more our eyes become clear. We can see more impurity in us and hence we will seek and receive more Grace to overcome sin.

Death will free us from the presence of Sin. Hence we will be free from Unconscious sins after death. But before we die we can and we should definitely overcome all conscious sins. There is no question about that. Any doubt in this is doubting God's promise.

I see 2 posters here frequently supporting on the same topic. The very fact that you have to twist few words to match your theology is a proof that it is a lie.

We can put such discussion to rest.


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Sreeram

 2013/8/7 2:33Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1711


 Re: Entire sanctification A necessity by Dougan Clark, M. D.

There are lot of mistakes in this article. Let me point one by one by quoting scripture.

Quote:

First, through repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, we are converted. Our past sins are pardoned, and we are born again. After that, our sole business is to grow in grace, and by this growth to approach nearer and nearer to the standard of entire sanctification, but never even suppose that we can reach that standard until the moment of death.



The article states that the above quoted growth is unscriptural. I disagree with it. It is the only way to grow in Christ.

The article agrees that there is a growth in Grace. Yes there is. Justification is only introduction to grace (Romans 5:2), sadly for many Christians Justification is beginning and end of Grace. After we are justified we need to grow in Grace. Which means we need to increase in our reception of Grace.

To understand Grace we need to know the definition of Grace. Grace does not mean literally 'what we do not deserve'. This life itself I do not deserve so does that mean my life is grace? Bible says Grace and Truth came through Jesus. Which means grace was missing before Jesus came. So grace should be something more than a literal definition - 'what we do not deserve'.

Exact definition of grace is in Hebrews 4:16-Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Grace is simply help at the time of Need. We grow in grace as we seek more and more help from God. Who is the one who seek help? the one who is broken and acknowledges his inability. A man who thinks he is strong will not ask for Help. That is why a newly born again believer does not get much grace. He thinks he is strong enough to overcome sins. But once he is broken after repetitive failure he acknowledges his lack of strength and seeks grace.

That is why God gives his grace to Humble (1 Peter 5), who acknowledge their inability and ask for help. The more we walk with God, God will show us more sins in our life. Hence we will seek more help and receive more grace. There are 2 kinds of Sins, conscious and unconscious sins. Conscious sin is the one that we are aware of committing. Once we ask for Help we will receive help in overcoming it. It is a lie if we tell that we will overcome it only after death. We will receive Help like promised in Hebrews 4.

Unconscious sins are those that we commit without knowing. God will reveal it to us the more we walk with him. Once we identify it we need his help to overcome it. Christian life is this continuous walk where we keep cleansing ourself until death or until Jesus comes.

1 John 3:2 - We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.


Based on the above scripture this quoted part of article is lie.
Quote:
If it is free from sin it cannot be more free from sin. An empty vessel, as some one has said, cannot be more empty. There can be no increase in purity.



Purity is based on what you see with. A vessel might appear pure when seen with naked eye but when seen with Microscope you will know the germs in it. As we walk more with God we see our heart more clearly and find impurity in it. This is what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 4.

For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.

By Paul's eye his heart or Conscious is absolutely clear or clean but he does not judge himself Righteous or achieved entire sanctification, because God is the one who is looking into his heart and his standard is way higher. When he looks into my heart with higher resolution eye he can see impurity that I do not know now.

1 Peter 1:19 says - Grace that comes at the revelation of Jesus.

The more Jesus is revealed to us, the more our eyes become clear. We can see more impurity in us and hence we will seek and receive more Grace to overcome sin.

Death will free us from the presence of Sin. Hence we will be free from Unconscious sins after death. But before we die we can and we should definitely overcome all conscious sins. There is no question about that. Any doubt in this is doubting God's promise.

I see 2 posters here frequently supporting on the same topic. The very fact that you have to twist few words to match your theology is a proof that it is a lie.

We can put such discussion to rest.


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Sreeram

 2013/8/7 2:47Profile
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Brother Sree,

I think you have posted a very clear and correct explanation, in particular your definition of grace. Thank you!

One thing I would add to the vessel analogy is that purity is not just about being 'empty' or clean, but also being filled with the life of God. This can only come as a gift from God, which as you say is His grace to us. We are exhorted to be continually filled (Eph.5:18 is in present continuous tense), not a one time event.

Blessings to you.


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Dave

 2013/8/7 5:05Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote by Sree: I see 2 posters here frequently supporting on the same topic. The very fact that you have to twist few words to match your theology is a proof that it is a lie.

Please point out the few words I have twisted…… rather than just slurring my name.

Quote by Sree Death will free us from the presence of Sin. Hence we will be free from Unconscious sins after death.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin 1 John 1:7

Wrong death doesn’t free us from unconscious sins, “the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin”


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Colin Murray

 2013/8/7 6:36Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1711


 Re:

Quote:
Quote by Sree: I see 2 posters here frequently supporting on the same topic. The very fact that you have to twist few words to match your theology is a proof that it is a lie.

Please point out the few words I have twisted…… rather than just slurring my name.


Forgive me if it appears that I am slurring your name. I should have told that point in a different way, I ended my previous post in hurry so did not word that part well. All I meant to say was - I see 2 posters who frequently post similar subject though they have not convinced anyone on this subject nor have every convincingly able to explain the scriptures that are against their understanding. I don't even remember the name of the posters who post this. I just remember only 2 people here supporting it. All I wanted to say is, this topic is discussed enough.

The scripture I am referring here is Philippians 3-12, 1 John 3-3. In both these scriptures we are asked to Press on to perfection and purity. I simply cannot agree with the explanation given that Perfection in Phil 3-12 is Martyrdom. If it was so then Paul is simply stating that I am still alive. Which makes the statement laughable. It is a clear proof of twisting the scripture to say something so that it does not hurt ones theology.


Quote:
Quote by Sree Death will free us from the presence of Sin. Hence we will be free from Unconscious sins after death.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin 1 John 1:7

Wrong death doesn’t free us from unconscious sins, “the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin”



There is a difference between cleansing and freeing. You can clean a pig but you cannot free it from the habit of falling in gutter. I agree that blood of Jesus can only cleanse ALL sins (both Conscious and unconscious) in us. But to free us from Sin we need Holy Spirit to work in us to free us from Pig nature to Cat nature. Pigs enjoy living in gutter but a cat the moment it gets dirty starts licking itself to be clean.

we will always have unconscious sins in our life. That is why John is writing this in 1 John 1:7-If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
John is using the word 'Us' which means he is including himself in the list.


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Sreeram

 2013/8/7 7:34Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1711


 Re:

Quote:

One thing I would add to the vessel analogy is that purity is not just about being 'empty' or clean, but also being filled with the life of God. This can only come as a gift from God, which as you say is His grace to us. We are exhorted to be continually filled (Eph.5:18 is in present continuous tense), not a one time event.



Good point. Paul says to Timothy that the Goal of all our teaching is love from Pure heart (1 Timothy 1:5). He did not say emptiness from Pure heart but a pure heart filled with love. The definition of Pure heart is also mentioned in 1 Timothy 1:5 which is to have a good conscience. Who pours this love into such pure heart? Holy Spirit.

Romans 5:5- the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


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Sreeram

 2013/8/7 7:39Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Philippians 3-12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

To understand this verse you must read the verses before and after. Philippians 3:10-15

Salvation is Justification, Sanctification and Glorification

Paul starts by speaking about being “made conformable unto his death” and “the resurrection of the dead” Paul is clearly teaching here about the third part of salvation which is Glorification which he hasn’t attained yet so in that sense he is not perfect.

The high calling of God is the day when you’re dressed in white; He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment Revelation 3:5 it is only then that we could say we are perfectly holy.

However in verse 15 he makes this statement “as many as be perfect, be thus minded” The word perfect is holiness but in the sense that he and others are perfect (Holy).

We can never can be perfectly Holy until we are Glorified, however that doesn’t mean that we cannot be as Holy (perfect) as a saved sinner can be on this earth.


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Colin Murray

 2013/8/7 10:17Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1711


 Re:

Quote:
Paul starts by speaking about being “made conformable unto his death” and “the resurrection of the dead” Paul is clearly teaching here about the third part of salvation which is Glorification which he hasn’t attained yet so in that sense he is not perfect.



Resurrection of dead is only mentioned in Verse 11, which is continuation of verse 10 where he talks about knowing the suffering of Christ, fellowshiping with him, to know the power of his resurrection which is demonstrated in our sanctification. So I have not attained in Verse 12 means the entire thing that he talks in Verse 10 to 11. Again if Paul was saying that I am not resurrected yet from dead then it will be funny as everyone knows that he is alive that is why he is writing this letter.

Also the word Perfect in verse 15 means those who want to be perfect or spiritually matured. He says those who are spiritually mature have this attitude that I have and press on to perfection.

Quote:
We can never can be perfectly Holy until we are Glorified, however that doesn’t mean that we cannot be as Holy (perfect) as a saved sinner can be on this earth.



This is what i have been saying as well. We are not prefect yet but as much as possible for us to be Christlike on this earth we have to attain that standard. We have to grow to that standard.

If we are already Pure as mentioned in this article then why do we have to purify ourself as mentioned in 1 John 3:3.


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Sreeram

 2013/8/7 12:23Profile





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