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IRONMAN
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 The Spirit

God asks us to worship Him in spirit and in truth. How well do we allow the Spirit to teach us how to do this? Do we hold to doctrine mindlessly because we think that is what pleases God or are compelled to do so by the Spirit? What is the spirit that drives what we say we do for God, be it studying the bible, teaching people about God, or even praying? are we inspired by our own desires to please God or look good before man or the Holy Spirit?


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Farai Bamu

 2005/3/20 10:17Profile
Jimm
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 Re: The Spirit

Farai

That is sadly too, true. Sometimes we come with our “wonderful” ideas to the Lord and it seems that on some level we are saying, “now Lord, all I need is your signature here and this will be the most amazing thing I… I mean, [i]you[/i] ever did for the kingdom. If the rest of my response appears sharp, take heart, it is directed largely towards me.

Quote:
What is the spirit that drives what we say we do for God, be it studying the bible, teaching people about God, or even praying? are we inspired by our own desires to please God or look good before man or the Holy Spirit?



This is an all-important question. Lately I have been compelled to stop during my readings reading because I feel that I have touched death. There is an inexplicable feeling of “not being edified” every time I read in the wrong attitude, that is, without seeking after God and our Lord then it is an exercise in futility. It is nothing more than the desire to develop my ego (the self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves) in disguise. This is of course not an all-encompassing theology on “what is lacking in worship” but, I would have to say that self is a big hindrance. An overdeveloped ego is nothing more than pride, which is a holiness repellent in that it repels God in whom is all Holiness. If we cannot approach God in Holiness, His holiness which for us is in His Son, we cannot touch the kind of glory that produces genuine worship; where you are genuinely thinking, “WOW GOD IS REAL!”. This (genuine worship) lies in sharp contrast to our use of memory to string a line of attributes of God, which we have learnt intellectually in our studies but when you have touched something real and living, praise is spontaneous and real.

I am just zeroing in on one point here, but, knowledge in itself is not bad, but an over-reliance in what we know in our heads, by deduction, and what we have come to learn from a host of other saints. This is so artificial, that it becomes “vain repetitions”, a “written code”, a formula by which we manipulate a God whom by our very actions (even if we do not consciously say so) we believe is reluctant to manifest Himself. It is a lack of faith in God, but faith in knowledge that has been disguised with outward prudence (1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?) and dedication reminiscent of the attitude of the Pharisees. We must constantly examine ourselves to see if the words which we speak carry any weight at all, for the church continues to abound in “terminologies”, commentaries and translations but for all this we have seen no power (1 Corinthians 4:20For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.)

Amassing all this knowledge is work which requires time, your time; will this work abide the fire? If not, what in God’s name are we doing, other than entertaining our minds? Knowledge is so seductive and subtle. One man said, “knowledge is power”. I fear that we are enticed by a demonstration of knowledge not only in ourselves but also in others. It is powerful and impressive but, a powerful intellect is a function of the unregenerate man. D.L. Mood preached the same sermons he preached before his anointing but how it that it was powerful only after the anointing. Words (in themselves) are nothing. God does not abide in the alphabet nor in our understanding of linguistics. He abides in Spirit and in truth. How then can we now take sermons and study them as if they are the source of enlightenment and not God (not that we consciously say this but let us be honest with ourselves dear people). We look upon them (sermons and scriptures) as something we can analyze as if the order of the words is the source of power and not God.

Ravenhill said this, “God pity us that after years of writing, using mountains of paper and rivers of ink, exhausting flashy terminology about the biggest revival meetings in history, we are still faced with gross corruption in every nation, as well as with the most prayerless church age since Pentecost.”
The compilations section has a sermon, “Young Donald Prays”. I was so impressed by this that I read up on the revival in question. The name of this young 16 year old boy came up again and, on another occasion he was called to pray with a congregation and all he said was, “Father” and everybody would break out and start crying under conviction of sin. One word- Father. I do not believe all the word studies in the world will reproduce this same effect in me, nor all the experience in the world. This kind of effect spoke some thing about the quality of relationship this young boy had with God. He was uncontaminated with bias silly ideas and words. Mr Campbell said, “As I was preaching I looked down and saw his (Donald’s) tears wet the floor, and I knew that he was closer to God than I was…and I said to Him, Donald, I find it extremely difficult to preach hear, I want you to pray.” Could we stand to condescend to those younger and less experienced and less knowledgeable than us? The wisdom of this world puts emphasis, on stature and knowledge, both of which are a hindrance to the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 1:29 hat no flesh should glory in his presence.)

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/3/20 21:03Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
That is sadly too, true. Sometimes we come with our “wonderful” ideas to the Lord and it seems that on some level we are saying, “now Lord, all I need is your signature here and this will be the most amazing thing I… I mean, you ever did for the kingdom. If the rest of my response appears sharp, take heart, it is directed largely towards me.



This is all because we don't do one thing, either in ignorance or just neglect. We don't seek the counsel of the spirit of God. On some levels we want to work for God but we want to do things on our own terms and therein is the problem. The work is not ours lest we mess it all up, the work belongs to God and it must be done through Him. anything else is futile and wastes time and resources that could be better spent. Through His spirit He gives life to His work, anything short of that means dead works.This is a thing which God is impressing on me to share with anyone who would listen.

Quote:
It is nothing more than the desire to develop my ego (the self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves) in disguise. This is of course not an all-encompassing theology on “what is lacking in worship” but, I would have to say that self is a big hindrance.



Oh how we love to prove others wrong and make ourselves appear smarter or feel better about our own shorcomings than by putting someone down. We must always examine the spirit behind what we say and do: is it God compelling me to glorify Him, or am I trying to glorify myself?

Quote:
and dedication reminiscent of the attitude of the Pharisees. We must constantly examine ourselves to see if the words which we speak carry any weight at all, for the church continues to abound in “terminologies”, commentaries and translations but for all this we have seen no power (1 Corinthians 4:20For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.)



Now while this may hurt some feelings God will not allow me to be silent on that note. We have so disected the bible based on OUR own perception of what the inspired authors were trying to say that many are lost. God will judge us for that. The bible is not a thing to be looked upon as we would look upon a science book. It is a book that was inspired by the spirit of God and hence it requires that the same spirit gives us the proper interpretation. If i had a nickel for every time I came up with some foolish definition or read or heard one from someone else...There are many things I have told people and told myself about GOd and the bible that were not born of the Spirit but born out of my own desire to glorify myself. If there was any kind of power in all the commentaries, opinions, published studies of the bible we would be kicking Satan's butt all over this earth and beyond. This just goes to show that there is no power in that at all, it's just a bunch of hot air. There is no power in knowing the bible backwards and forwards( I'm not advocating cessation of bible studies, just screaming out we should do so according to the Spirit of God!!!) The pharisees knew their scriptures better than anyone and when Christ came they were the main ones against Him when they should have been the first to recognize Him. Now how could this be? The spirit in which they interpreted scripture was one which sought to glorify them rather than God. Many of us are guilty of that. We must admit it and seek the Holy spirit to remedy this.

Quote:
God does not abide in the alphabet nor in our understanding of linguistics. He abides in Spirit and in truth. How then can we now take sermons and study them as if they are the source of enlightenment and not God (not that we consciously say this but let us be honest with ourselves dear people). We look upon them (sermons and scriptures) as something we can analyze as if the order of the words is the source of power and not God.



This is it, this is what is causing an anger in my spirit now, and has been for some time. The lack of desire to seek God in spirit. Part of that is because for so long we have not sought the spirit that we are so divided on what the spirit will do, we're overly restrictive on how the sPirit works. The spirit works in more ways than we care to imagine and we need to come to grips with that, we just don't know ALL the ways in which the spirit works and it is not necessary because the spirit will bear witness to itself as it moves.

A terrible judgement is upon us, it will come soon and when it does there will be no doubt what it is, but there will be much denial. Hold fast to the Lord and seek Him in spirit and in truth while He may be found lest you be swept away by the coming grievious whirlwind of judgement.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/3/22 2:06Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
He was uncontaminated with bias silly ideas and words. Mr Campbell said, “As I was preaching I looked down and saw his (Donald’s) tears wet the floor, and I knew that he was closer to God than I was…and I said to Him, Donald, I find it extremely difficult to preach hear, I want you to pray.” Could we stand to condescend to those younger and less experienced and less knowledgeable than us? The wisdom of this world puts emphasis, on stature and knowledge, both of which are a hindrance to the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 1:29 hat no flesh should glory in his presence.)



Yes indeed, it would be good to lend an ear to such but to truly listen and learn is a thing which comes only by grace.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/3/22 2:08Profile
Jimm
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 Re:

Quote:
Now while this may hurt some feelings God will not allow me to be silent on that note. We have so disected the bible based on OUR own perception of what the inspired authors were trying to say that many are lost. God will judge us for that. The bible is not a thing to be looked upon as we would look upon a science book. It is a book that was inspired by the spirit of God and hence it requires that the same spirit gives us the proper interpretation. If i had a nickel for every time I came up with some foolish definition or read or heard one from someone else...There are many things I have told people and told myself about GOd and the bible that were not born of the Spirit but born out of my own desire to glorify myself. If there was any kind of power in all the commentaries, opinions, published studies of the bible we would be kicking Satan's butt all over this earth and beyond. This just goes to show that there is no power in that at all, it's just a bunch of hot air. There is no power in knowing the bible backwards and forwards( I'm not advocating cessation of bible studies, just screaming out we should do so according to the Spirit of God!!!) The pharisees knew their scriptures better than anyone and when Christ came they were the main ones against Him when they should have been the first to recognize Him. Now how could this be? The spirit in which they interpreted scripture was one which sought to glorify them rather than God. Many of us are guilty of that. We must admit it and seek the Holy spirit to remedy this.



We have heard the term “bookworms”, but what of the term “bible worms”? E.M Bounds coined the term (bible worms) in his book, “Power through Prayer”. Listen to this bro:

Quote:
THERE are two extreme tendencies in the ministry. The one is to shut itself out from intercourse with the people. The monk, the hermit were illustrations of this; they shut themselves out from men to be more with God. They failed, of course. Our being with God is of use only as we expend its priceless benefits on men. This age, neither with preacher nor with people, is much intent on God. Our hankering is not that way. We shut ourselves to our study, we become students, bookworms, Bible worms, sermon makers, noted for literature, thought, and sermons; but the people and God, where are they? Out of heart, out of mind. Preachers who are great thinkers, great students must be the greatest of prayers, or else they will be the greatest of backsliders, heartless professionals, rationalistic, less than the least of preachers in God's estimate.


The other tendency is to thoroughly popularize the ministry. He is no longer God's man, but a man of affairs, of the people. He prays not, because his mission is to the people. If he can move the people, create an interest, a sensation in favor of religion, an interest in Church work -- he is satisfied. His personal relation to God is no factor in his work. Prayer has little or no place in his plans. The disaster and ruin of such a ministry cannot be computed by earthly arithmetic. What the preacher is in prayer to God, for himself, for his people, so is his power for real good to men, so is his true fruitfulness, his true fidelity to God, to man, for time, for eternity.



This book (Power through Prayer) is directed towards preachers but it can and, in my judgment, does apply to any ministry; as many as are members of the body of Christ have a ministry of some sort. He refers to preachers in this next bit but look at it from your ministry dear friends:

Quote:
The praying which makes a prayerful ministry is not a little praying put in as we put flavor to give it a pleasant smack, but the praying must be in the body, and form the blood and bones. Prayer is no petty duty, put into a corner; no piecemeal performance made out of the fragments of time which have been snatched from business and other engagements of life; but it means that the best of our time, the heart of our time and strength must be given. It does not mean the closet absorbed in the study or swallowed up in the activities of ministerial duties; but it means the closet first, the study and activities second, both study and activities freshened and made efficient by the closet. Prayer that affects one's ministry must give tone to one's life. The praying which gives color and bent to character is no pleasant, hurried pastime. It must enter as strongly into the heart and life as Christ's "strong crying and tears" did; must draw out the soul into an agony of desire as Paul's did; must be an inwrought fire and force like the "effectual, fervent prayer" of James; must be of that quality which, when put into the golden censer and incensed before God, works mighty spiritual throes and revolutions.

Talking to men for God is a great thing, but talking to God for men is greater still. He will never talk well and with real success to men for God who has not learned well how to talk to God for men. More than this, prayerless words in the pulpit and out of it are deadening words.



Prayer, particularly prayer “in the Spirit” is simply immeasurable to us. What are the implications of the Spirit to us? To me the greatest work of the Spirit is that it is an expression of Christ in us as believers. As we are different parts of the body of Christ, the Spirit expresses itself differently in all of us. Christ and the Spirit are inseparable for it is on this basis that we as believers have any relationship at all with the Godhead. We do not bring our on “worthiness” or rather, “unworthiness” to communion with God or with other believers. Being “In Christ” and “In the Spirit” are synonymous and are the basis for everything that is of the kingdom. It is these works that will abide the fire at the judgment seat of Christ. We must be in the business of examining ourselves, not by our own eyes and deceitful bias hearts, but in the light of the Lord, in which no darkness may abide. Howbeit we do not come to such light, especially the light that is in prayer, lest “our deeds be made manifest, that they are wrought in darkness.” Christ is our worthiness for being in the light and unless we lay hold of this worthiness we will not have the boldness and faith to make revolutions that produce abiding works for the kingdom. Listens to what Watchman Nee says of Christ in his book, “The Normal Christian Faith” (different to, “the Normal Christian life”):

Quote:
But our faith is entirely different. From its outset, Christianity is built on the man Christ. It is not built on the doctrines and teachings of Christ. It is amazing that when you open the Bible, you will not find too many chapters of doctrines. Passages where pure doctrinal issues are expounded are rare and of less concern to people. What concerns one the most is the man Himself and what kind of person He is. All who have read the Bible know that the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth are not outstandingly voluminous. His person draws our attention. He alone is the foundation of our faith.

The word Christ came from Greek, meaning the Anointed One. According to the Chinese, when a man takes up a task, he is given a letter of employment. The Jewish equivalent of this is anointing. When God summons a person for a work, He pours oil on the person as a seal of commission. Christ is the very God who was set apart to come to earth to be a man for the manifestation of God, in order that man may know God. Christ is the Anointed One. He is commissioned to such a task.

Due to this basic distinction, Christ is different from the founders of other religions. Once He asked His disciples, "Who do you say that I am?" Over and over again He demanded that His disciples believe in Him. He said that he who believes in the Son has eternal life. Again He said, "He who loves father or mother above Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter above Me is not worthy of Me" (Matt. 10:37). Unless a man loves in this way, he is not worthy to be His disciple. Words such as these have been uttered only by Him. No other religious leader ever said anything like that. Confucius never said to Yen-weh or Tze-lu, "Believe in me," nor did he ever say, "Love me." Neither did any of the other leaders, such as Sakya Muni or Mohammed, demand of their disciples faith in them. All it takes to be their disciples is to believe in their doctrines.

Hence, the true Christian faith is based on a person. It is built on Christ and not on some doctrines. The crux of the true Christian faith is a question of who Jesus is! Is He merely a Jew? Is He only a prophet? Or is Jesus the Son of the living God? The whole matter hinges upon who Jesus of Nazareth is. The difference between a genuine Christian and a false one lies not in the knowledge of the doctrines of Christ. Rather, it lies in the knowledge of who Jesus is!



James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/3/22 21:54Profile
Jimm
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 Maturity in spirit

1 Corinthians 2:6-16 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his [b]Spirit[/b]: for the [b]Spirit[/b] searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the [b]spirit[/b] of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the [b]Spirit[/b] of God. 12 Now we have received, not the [b]spirit[/b] of the world, but the [b]spirit[/b] which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the [b]Spirit[/b] of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are [b]spiritually[/b] discerned. 15 But he that is [b]spiritual[/b] judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The thing I would like to bring to surface is the casing of the word [i]spirit[/i]. The Holy Spirit of has, as you know, a capital [i]S[/i] and our spirits have the lower casing of the [i]s[/i]. Pay close attention to the casing throughout this discussion. To discern the things of the Holy Spirit we must have a quickened spirit. This is the whole meaning and purpose of being “born again”:

John 3: 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God…5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

He who is “born again” is born of Spirit and that which is born of Spirit is spirit. We must be clear that the immediate purpose of being born again is that we may have the means to have communion with the His Spirit. Spiritual things cannot be discerned until we are born again. To be born of the Spirit in this way is a definite event, and it is not something vague or theoretical, our Lord himself defined this for us; that which is born of [i]Spirit[/i] is [i]spirit[/i]. As believers we must be aware of the health and progress of our own spirit. I am not referring to spiritual gifts here but an increased apprehension, relationship and awareness of the presence of the Holy Spirit via our own spirit. The doctrine in this respect is not quite as important as the practice. People who pray often “in the Spirit” have a mature spirit and are able to discern the leadings of the Holy Spirit. A strong spiritual life is one with which a strong spirit is in active communion with the Lord’s Spirit and with the spirits of other believers. This is not spiritual gift but a function of the normal spirit of any believer who is mature in spirit. Spiritual gifts (which I am by no means denying) are totally separate from maturity in spirit. Only quality fellowship with the Lord and, secondarily, with other believers brings about such maturity. This is not “high level” Christianity even if the doctrines sounds new the practice is much more important.

In conclusion to discern whether or not we are spiritual, we must first be aware of whether or not we have been born again and if after our birth we have matured in this spirit. Not maturity in gifts(prophesying, ministering, exhorting, faith, healing, tongues, wisdom, knowlege etc) for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. An increase in any of these (gifts) areas in not necessarily spiritual maturity. A muture spirit is evident in the life, temperment, mind, peace and chracter of the believer

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/3/27 22:45Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
We have heard the term “bookworms”, but what of the term “bible worms”? E.M Bounds coined the term (bible worms) in his book, “Power through Prayer”. Listen to this bro:



bible worms...mmm...it has a ring to it...It seems to me that the system in the world centers around self and the glorification thereof, and when we take that mentality into scriptures, it causes big problems. While the intent may be to learn more of God and glorify God but we end up glorifying self. Even if one doesn't go into scripture with that mentality it is possible for it to creep in so we must be weary of this always.

Quote:
Prayer, particularly prayer “in the Spirit” is simply immeasurable to us. What are the implications of the Spirit to us? To me the greatest work of the Spirit is that it is an expression of Christ in us as believers. As we are different parts of the body of Christ, the Spirit expresses itself differently in all of us. Christ and the Spirit are inseparable for it is on this basis that we as believers have any relationship at all with the Godhead. We do not bring our on “worthiness” or rather, “unworthiness” to communion with God or with other believers. Being “In Christ” and “In the Spirit” are synonymous and are the basis for everything that is of the kingdom. It is these works that will abide the fire at the judgment seat of Christ. We must be in the business of examining ourselves, not by our own eyes and deceitful bias hearts, but in the light of the Lord, in which no darkness may abide. Howbeit we do not come to such light, especially the light that is in prayer, lest “our deeds be made manifest, that they are wrought in darkness.” Christ is our worthiness for being in the light and unless we lay hold of this worthiness we will not have the boldness and faith to make revolutions that produce abiding works for the kingdom. Listens to what Watchman Nee says of Christ in his book, “The Normal Christian Faith” (different to, “the Normal Christian life”):



We see God working in the flesh, providing, protecting etc but we often are content with just that. God's work in the spirit is so much more amazing. God has brought me to a point where I know for sure He will make provisions for me in my life on earth so that sorta becomes an afterthought to what I can feel and see Him doing in the spirit. That seems to have taken center stage for me now. Seeing myself as God sees me, wretched and full of sin is such a breaking experience, but then becoming aware of the trouble God has gone to to to nurture this relationship is even more overwhelming. One sees his unworthiness and in that becomes wintness to the grace of God, God's perogative God bringing me into His presence by His own power.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/3/31 0:21Profile
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 Re:

The bible says that we are born again of the spirit, should we not then live and walk and breathe in the spirit? should it not become a thing we do each day untill it requires no thought? to walk in anything outside of the spirit is to walk in the flesh.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/3/31 17:48Profile
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 General question

Can you define what it is you mean by worship him in spirit and in truth? What is your definition of being lead by the Holy Spirit? And how do you know when your desires are acceptable in God's sight?


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D.Miller

 2005/3/31 18:40Profile
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 Re: General question

Worshipping in spirit and in truth is loving God wholly, with all of one's being and when we show that love by various acts, those acts are inspired by His spirit. Truth reflects the genuineness (if there is such a word) of that spirit. As for how one knows whether one's desires are acceptable in God's sight, I can no more define that for you than I can how it should feel when you are in love. God will minister to me differently than He will to you because our needs are different and are characters are also different. The best I can say is this, God told me not to rely on how I felt coz I would not always get that same feeling if I was in line with His will for me. He said to trust in Him for that. He also said I should exercise the spirit and move as it directs.This strengthens the spirit and one matures in the spirit such that one is more and more in tune with God inthe spirit.The feeling I'd get ( af fuzzy sort of feeling I guess) was like a crutch now I have to toss it and walk. It's more of a sense of being pleasing to God than feeling like you are pleasing Him. That will be a thing that God will define for you and will not be the same for the next man.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/3/31 19:13Profile





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