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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does the New Testament Teach Cessionism?

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proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Does the New Testament Teach Cessionism?

The Bible no where teaches Cessionism.

Men and church traditions whom have not experienced the power revealed in the Scripture, have interpeted the Scripture through the lens of justifing their experiences and their traditions. instead of doing as they ought and having their experiences changed and impowered by believing the Scriptures.

Lets believe in a Church that has men whom are given gifts of healing, workers of miracles, Prophets, diserners of Spirits, divers kinds of tongues. those whom interpret tongues, etc.

Lets not doubt the supernatural reality of these gifts nor try to explain them away as natural talants or carnal gifts.


 2013/8/3 17:10Profile









 Re:

Savanah I tried to download the media you posted but cannot access these files. Can you give a brief description what this brother believes?

Bearmaster.

 2013/8/3 19:30
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: """Philip so are you saying prophecy is done away with ???"""

What prophecy are you speaking of?

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2013/8/4 1:26Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: The Gift Remains


Jonathan Edwards on the Cessation of Revelatory Gifts -

“Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.” – 1 Cor. 13:8.

In the entire context, the drift of the apostle is, to shew the superiority of charity over all the other graces of the Spirit. And in this chapter he sets forth its excellence by three things: first, by shewing that it is the most essential thing, and that all other gifts are nothing without it; second, by shewing that from it all good dispositions and behaviour do arise; and, third, by shewing that it is the most durable of all gifts, and shall remain when the church of God shall be in its most perfect state, and when the other gifts of the Spirit shall have vanished away.

One property of charity, by which its excellence is set forth, is, that it is unfailing and everlasting – “Charity never faileth.” This naturally follows the last words of the preceding verse, that “charity endureth all things.” There the apostle declares the durableness of charity, as it appears in its withstanding the shock of all the opposition that can be made against it in the world. And now he proceeds further, and declares that charity not only endures to the end of time, but also throughout eternity – “Charity never faileth.” When all temporal things shall have failed, this shall still abide, and abide for ever. We may also observe in the text,

Herein charity is distinguished from all the other gifts of the Spirit, such as prophecy, and the gift of tongues, and the gift of knowledge, &c. “Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away;” but “charity never faileth.” By the knowledge here spoken of, is not meant spiritual and divine knowledge in general; for surely there will be such knowledge hereafter in heaven, as well as now on earth, and vastly more than there is on earth, as the apostle expressly declares in the following verses. The knowledge that Christians have of God, and Christ, and spiritual things, and in fact all their knowledge, as that word is commonly understood, shall not vanish away, but shall be gloriously increased and perfected in heaven, which is a world of light as well as love. But by the knowledge which the apostle says shall vanish away, is meant a particular miraculous gift that was in the church of God in those days. For the apostle, as we have seen, is here comparing charity with the miraculous gifts of the Spirit – those extraordinary gifts which were common in the church in those days, one of which was the gift of prophecy, and another the gift of tongues, or the power of speaking in languages that had never been learned. Both these gifts are mentioned in the text; and the apostle says they shall fail and cease. And another gift was the gift of knowledge, or the word of knowledge, as it is called in the eighth verse of the previous chapter, where it is so spoken of as to shew that it was a different thing, both from that speculative knowledge which is obtained from reason and study, and also from that spiritual or divine knowledge that comes from the saving influence of the Holy Spirit in the soul. It was a particular gift of the Spirit with which some persons were endowed, whereby they were enabled by immediate inspiration to understand mysteries, or the mysterious prophecies and types of the Scriptures, which the apostle speaks of in the second verse of this chapter, saying, “Though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge,” &c. It is this miraculous gift which the apostle here says shall vanish away, together with the other miraculous gifts of which he speaks, such as prophecy, and the gift of tongues, &c. All these were extraordinary gifts bestowed for a season for the introduction and establishment of Christianity in the world, and when this their end was gained, they were all to fail and cease. But charity was never to cease.

These gifts are not fruits of the Spirit that were given to be continued to the church throughout all ages. They were continued in the church, or at least were granted from time to time, though not without some considerable intermissions, from the beginning of the world till the canon of the Scriptures was completed. They were bestowed on the church before the beginning of the sacred canon, that is, before the book of Job and the five books of Moses were written. People had the word of God then in another way, viz. by immediate revelation from time to time given to eminent persons, who were, as it were, fathers in the church of God, and this revelation handed down from them to others by oral tradition. It was a very common thing then, for the Spirit of God to communicate himself in dreams and visions, as appears by several passages in the book of Job. They had extraordinary gifts of the Spirit before the flood. God immediately and miraculously revealed himself to Adam and Eve, and so to Abel, and to Enoch, who, we are informed (Jude 14), had the gift of prophecy. And so Noah had immediate revelations made to him, and he warned the old world from God; and Christ, by his Spirit speaking through him, went and preached to the spirits that are now in prison, which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited while the ark was preparing (1 Pet. iii. 19, 20). And so Abraham and Isaac and Jacob were favoured with immediate revelations; and Joseph had extraordinary gifts of the Spirit, and so had Job and his friends. From this time, there seems to have been an intermission of the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit until the time of Moses; and from his time they were continued in a succession of prophets, that was kept up, though not again without some interruptions, till the time of Malachi. After that, there seems to have been a long intermission of several hundred years, till the dawn of the gospel day, when the Spirit began again to be given in his extraordinary gifts, as to Anna, and Simeon, and Zacharias, and Elizabeth, and Mary, and Joseph, and John the Baptist.

These communications of the Spirit were given to make way for him who hath the Spirit without measure, the great prophet of God;, by whom the Spirit is communicated to all other prophets. And in the days of his flesh, his disciples had a measure of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, being enabled thus to teach and to work miracles. But after the resurrection and ascension, was the most full and remarkable effusion of the Spirit in his miraculous gifts that ever took place, beginning with the day of Pentecost, after Christ had risen and ascended to heaven. And in consequence of this, not only here and there an extraordinary person was endowed with these extraordinary gifts, but they were common in the church, and so continued during the lifetime of he apostles, or till the death of the last of them, even the apostle John, which took place about a hundred years from the birth of Christ; so that the first hundred years of the Christian era, or the first century, was the era of miracles. But soon after that, the canon of Scripture being completed when the apostle John had written the book of Revelation, which he wrote not long before his death, these miraculous gifts were no longer continued in the church. For there was now completed an established written revelation of the mind and will of God, wherein God had fully recorded a standing and all-sufficient rule for his church in all ages. And the Jewish church and nation being overthrown, and the Christian church and the last dispensation of the church of God being established, the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were no longer needed, and therefore they ceased; for though they had been continued in the church for so many ages, yet then they failed, and God caused them to fail because there was no further occasion for them. And so was fulfilled the saying of the text, “Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.” And now there seems to be an end to all such fruits of the Spirit as these, and we have no reason to expect them any more. And as to those fruits of the Spirit that are common, such as the conviction, illumination, belief, &c., which are common both to the godly and ungodly, these are given in all ages of the church in the world; and yet with respect to the persons that have these common gifts, they will cease when they come to die; and with respect to the church of God considered collectively, they will cease, and there will be no more of them after the day of judgment.

Of old, when there were interruptions of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit in the church, and when there were seasons in which no prophet or inspired person appeared that was possessed of such gifts, still there never was any total interruption of this excellent fruit or influence of the Spirit. Miraculous gifts were intermitted through the long time extending from Malachi to near the birth of Christ; but in all this time, the influence of the Spirit, in keeping up divine love In the church, was never suspended. As God always had a church of saints in the world, from the first creation of the church after the fall, so this influence and fruit of his Spirit never failed in it. And when, after the completion of the canon of the Scriptures, the miraculous gifts of the Spirit seemed finally to have ceased and failed in the church, this influence of the Spirit in causing divine love in the hearts of his saints did not cease, but has been kept up through all ages from that time to this, and so will be to the end of the world. And at the end of the world, when the church of Christ shall be settled in its last, and most complete, and its eternal state, and all common gifts, such as convictions and illuminations, and all miraculous gifts, shall be eternally at an end, yet then divine love shall not fall, but shall be brought to its most glorious perfection in every individual member of the ransomed church above. Then, in every heart, that love which now seems as but a spark, shall be kindled to a bright and glowing flame, and every ransomed soul shall be as It were in a blaze of divine and holy love, and shall remain and grow in this glorious perfection and blessedness through all eternity!

I shall give but a single reason for the truth of the doctrine which has thus been presented. And the great reason why it is so, that other fruits of the Spirit fail, and the great fruit of love remains, is, that love is the great end of all the other fruits and gifts of the Spirit. The principle and the exercises of divine love in the heart, and the fruits of it in the conduct, and the happiness that consists in and flows from it – these things are the great end of all the fruits of the Spirit that fail. Charity or divine love is the end, to which all the inspiration, and all the miraculous gifts that ever were in the world, are but the means. They were only means of grace, but charity or divine love is grace itself; and not only so, but the sum of all grace. Revelation and miracles were never given for any other end but only to promote holiness, and build up the kingdom of Christ in men’s hearts: but Christian love is the sum of all holiness, and its growth is but the growth of Christ’s kingdom in the soul. The extraordinary fruits of the Spirit were given for revealing and confirming the word and will of God, that men by believing might be conformed to that will: and they were valuable and good only so far as they tended to this end. And hence when that end was obtained, and when the canon of the Scriptures, the great and powerful means of grace, was completed, and the ordinances of the New Testament and of the last dispensation were fully established, the extraordinary gifts ceased, and came to an end, as being no further useful. Miraculous gifts being a means to a further end, they are good no further than as they tend to that end. But divine love is that end itself, and therefore remains when the means to it cease. The end is not only a good, but the highest kind of good in itself, and therefore remains for ever. So it is with respect to the common gifts of the Spirit that are given in all ages, such as illumination, conviction, &c. They have no good in themselves, and are no further good than as they tend to promote that grace and holiness which radically and summarily consist in divine love; and therefore when this end is once fully answered, there shall be an end for ever of these common gifts, while divine love, which is the end of them all, shall eternally remain.

In the application of this subject, I would remark,

1. That there seems to be no reason to think, as some have thought, that the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit are to be restored to the church in the future and glorious times of her latter-day prosperity and blessedness. – Many divines have been of the opinion, that when the latter-day glory of the church, which is spoken of in the Word of God, shall come, there will again be prophets, and men endowed with the gifts of tongues and of working miracles, as was the case in the times of the apostles; and some now living seem to be of the same mind.

But from what the apostle says in the text and context, it seems as though we had no reason to imagine any such thing from what the Scriptures say of the gloriousness of those times, or because it speaks of the state of the church then as being more glorious than ever before, and as though the Spirit of God would then be poured out in more abundant measure than ever in times past. All these things may be, and yet there be no such extraordinary gifts bestowed on the church. When the Spirit of God is poured out for the purpose of producing and promoting divine love, he is poured out in a more excellent way than when he is manifested in miraculous gifts. This the apostle expressly teaches in the latter part of the foregoing chapter, where, after enumerating many miraculous gifts, he advises Christians to covet or desire the best of them, but then adds, “And yet shew I unto you a more excellent way,” namely, to seek the influence of the Spirit of God, working charity or divine love in the heart. Surely the Scriptures, when speaking of the future glorious state of the church as being such an excellent state, give us no reason to conclude that the Spirit of God will be poured out then in any other way than in the most excellent way. And doubtless the most excellent way of the Spirit is for the most excellent state of the church.

The future state of the church being so much more perfect than in previous times, does not tend to prove that then there shall be miraculous gifts, but rather the contrary. For the apostle himself in the text and context, speaks of these extraordinary gifts ceasing and vanishing away to give place for a kind of fruits or influences of the Spirit that are more perfect. If you do but read the text in connexion with the two following verses, you will see that the reason implied why prophecy and tongues fail, and charity remains, is this, that the imperfect gives way to the perfect, and the less excellent to the more excellent; and the more excellent, he declares, is charity or love. Prophecy and miracles argue the imperfection of the state of the church, rather than its perfection. For they are means designed by God as a stay or support, or as a leading-string, if I may so say, to the church in its infancy, rather than as means adapted to it in its full growth; and as such the apostle seems to speak of them. When the Christian church first began, after the ascension of Christ, it was in its infancy, and then it needed miracles, &c., to establish it; but, being once established, and the canon of the Scriptures being completed, they ceased, which, according to the apostle’s arguing, shews their imperfection, and how much inferior they are to that fruit or influence of the Holy Spirit which is seen in divine love. Why, then, should we expect that they should be restored again when the church is in its most perfect state? All these miraculous gifts the apostle seems to call “childish things,” in comparison with the nobler fruit of Christian love. They are adapted to the childish state of the church, while holy love is more to be expected in its full-grown and manly state; and in themselves they are childish, in comparison with that holy love which will so abound in the church when it comes to its perfect stature in Christ Jesus.

Nor is the gloriousness of the future times of the church any argument for the continuance, in those times, of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit. For surely the state of the church then will not be more glorious than the heavenly state; and yet the apostle teaches, that in the heavenly state all these gifts shall be at an end, and the influence of the Spirit in producing divine love only shall remain. Nor does it appear that there shall be any need of miraculous gifts in order to the bringing about of the future glorious times of the church; for God is able to bring them about without the instrumentality of these gifts. If the Spirit of God be poured out in only his gracious influences in converting souls, and in kindling divine love in them in such measure as he may and will, this will be enough, without new revelations or miracles, to produce all the effects that need to be produced in order to the bringing in of the glorious times of which we are speaking; as we may all be convinced by the little we have seen in the late outpouring of the Spirit in this and the neighbouring towns. If we needed any new rule to go by, and the common influences of the Spirit, together with the Word of God, were insufficient, then there might be some necessity for restoring miracles. But there is no need whatever of new Scriptures being given, or of any additions being made to those we have, for they are in themselves a perfect rule for our faith and practice; and as there is no need of a new canon of Scripture, so there is no need of those miraculous gifts, the great object of which was, either to confirm the Scriptures, or to make up for the want of them when as yet they had not been given by the inspiring Spirit.

2. The subject we have been considering should make persons exceedingly cautious how they give heed to anything that may look like a new revelation, or that may claim to be any extraordinary gift of the Spirit. – Sometimes a person may have an impression in his mind as to something that he thinks immediately revealed to him that is to come to pass concerning himself or some of his relatives or friends; or as to something that is to come to pass that before was hid from him, and if it had not been revealed, would remain still a secret; or, perhaps, he thinks it has been revealed to him, what is the spiritual state of some other person, or of his own soul, in some other way than by the scriptural marks and evidences of grace in the heart. Sometimes persons imagine that they have an immediate direction from heaven to go and do this, or that, or the other thing, by impressions immediately made on their minds, or in some other way than by learning from Scripture or reason that it is their duty. And sometimes they fancy that God immediately reveals to them by a dream, what the future shall be. But all these things, if they were from God’s Spirit, would be of the nature of those extraordinary gifts of the Spirit which the apostle says do cease and are done away, and which, having long since failed, there is no reason to suppose that God will restore again. And if they are not from God’s Spirit, they are but gross delusions. And once more,

3. The subject teaches how greatly we should value those influences and fruits of the Spirit which are evidences of true grace in the soul, and which are all summarily included in charity, or divine love. – This is the end and design of the apostle in the text and context, to teach us to value this charity or love, by shewing that it never fails, though all the miraculous gifts of the Spirit do fail and come to an end. This grace is the most excellent fruit of the Spirit, without which the most extraordinary and miraculous gifts are nothing. This is the great end to which they are but the means; and which is, of course, more excellent than all these means. Let us all, therefore, earnestly seek this blessed fruit of the Spirit, and let us seek that it may abound in our souls; that the love of God may more and more be shed abroad in our hearts; and that we may love the Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity, and love one another as Christ hath loved us. Thus we shall possess the richest of all treasures, and the highest and most excellent of all graces. Having within us that love which is immortal in its nature, we shall have the surest evidence that our immortality will be blessed, and that our hope of eternal life is that good hope which shall never disappoint us. Love cherished in the soul on earth, will be to us the fore-taste of, and the preparation for, that world which is a world of love, and where the Spirit of love reigns and blesses for ever.

 2013/8/4 4:31Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2556


 Re:

hi Philip I was taling about the gift of prophecy and toungs and healings and the gift of miricals ,,,,my question was in contex to the oridgnal topic


blessings

 2013/8/4 6:57Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

If these gifts are of God for the Church, who am I to expect them to cease or flourish? I don't seek these gifts, I do seek Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit from the Father. If I seek first the kingdom of God all these things will be added unto me. It is the Holy Spirits moving in the Gifts that it is His responsibility to use in the Body as He sees fit for the building up of the Body of Christ.

We can see both ceasing and flourishing of the Gifts in scripture. We are to seek the better gifts, I don't know when the Gifts are better or not, I will leave that up to the One that uses them for Gods purpose and not my believing I can choose when the gift should be used, or even that I have the gift. A gift must be given or it is not a gift. These gifts of the Spirit are just that, they can and will be used when and where they are deemed at the right time for the responsibility of the Gift to do what it is intended to accomplish. I don't dare believe that I am qualified to use these gifts as God intends them to be used. I must depend and seek the Holy Spirit, offering myself that I am available to be used as He sees fit in any gift that He chooses to use by me.

Cease or flourish, it is not my choice, but I certainly will not put the Holy Spirit in a box and in my conceit expect to use them for God, it is His choice to use them as He sees fit, for my building up or the Body of Christ uplifting in Love and direction to bring us to the image of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:3-6 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

All the gifts: 1 Corinthians 12:11-14 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

All these; by God, dividing as He will, being one body in Christ, baptized into one Spirit, all drinking into the selfsame Spirit, for we are One, as of many, in the Christ that is birthed in us. By His prayed for and given by the Father, the Holy Spirit, the dividing of Gifts (severally)as He wills.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2013/8/4 16:25Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.


When Jesus disciples could not cast out the unclean spirit out of the child, Jesus said of that entire generation that they where "faithless and perverse!"

How much more are we in this rational worshiping generation of today, "faithless and perverse"

The very fact that we are even debating cessionism is evidence that something is seriously wrong in the Church,

God has not stopped working, we have just stopped believing.

 2013/8/4 17:46Profile
Sidewalk
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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re:

Proudpapa speaketh great wisdom,

"God has not stopped working, we have just stopped believing."


Jonathan Edwards was a brilliant and genuine man of God, I would never argue about that. But to me he seems to miss the point in the relationship between the gifts of the Spirit and the working of "charity" or agape love.

The fruits of the Spirit are not the same as the gifts. Fruit takes time to grow and mature, but gifts can be instantaneous. Gifts, in this spiritual context, are instruments of power in the hands of believers, somewhat in disregard of their maturity. Because of the power potential, the other potentials of pride, arrogance, and deception lurk very close by. It is in Paul's maturity knowing this that he gave us the 13th chapter of first Corinthians. It is a warning to believers who may not have much maturity to be so careful with these instruments of power.

But to think that the gifts are not necessary in the modern Christian gospel? May I join my friend Paul the Apostle to note that arrogance is an ugly trap that is hard to see.

Working with ProudPapa's wise nugget, just because we have stopped believing does not mean that God has stopped working!

"The eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, seeking someone in whom to show Himself strong!" (II Chron 16:9)


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Tom Cameron

 2013/8/7 0:20Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

////Jonathan Edwards was a brilliant and genuine man of God, I would never argue about that. But to me he seems to miss the point in the relationship between the gifts of the Spirit and the working of "charity" or agape love.////

I agree with this: ////Jonathan Edwards was a brilliant and genuine man of God, I would never argue about that.////

Jonathan Edwards like King Asa whom also was 'a brilliant and genuine man of God', trusted in the modern medicine of his day instead of Gods power to heal disease.

Jonathan Edwards trust in the modern medicine of his time is what lead to his death.



 2013/8/7 10:58Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

According to the context of 1 Corinthians Ch. 13, "that which is perfect" is love. When we have come to God's destination-- love-- when we have come to that which is perfect-- love-- then that which is in part shall be done away.

Are we there yet? I don't think so.

But this is God's objective in our lives. Love. And love will so transcend the things which were in part-- the gifts of the Spirit-- as to make them unnecessary.

John speaks of this as well-- being "made perfect in love," and thus having boldness in the day of judgment, because "as He is so are we in this world" (1 Jn. 4:17,18).

So we are to seek to grow in love, to follow after love, till the love of God is fully perfected in us and we are just like Jesus in this world. Meanwhile, until we come to love, the gifts of the Spirit will continue to be necessary to our growth.

"Follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts..."


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Allan Halton

 2013/8/7 15:01Profile





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