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Sentry
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Joined: 2004/2/5
Posts: 119
West Monroe, Louisiana

 Sin or not? I need some feedback please

I have a dear brother in my church who seems to think that if someone has a serious problem in their life, like... let's say a porno addiction, or maybe a drinking problem, etc...;that as long as you are truly trying to do right, then you are "ok" and will make it should the Lord return.

He seems to think that as long as someone is sincere with God, and asks forgiveness everyday, and is truly trying to get victory in this particular area...then they won't go to hell.

I'm not sure I agree.

I would really love some feedback (with scriptures) from some of you on this subject.

What scares me is that some other people have heard this statement, and they struggle with some areas in their life. I am afraid that they think that as long as they continue to run to the altar and cry, and come to Church, God will excuse their behavior.

I know that the Word says: "Where sin abounds, grace does much more abound" but where is the line drawn?

I value your opinion, and thanks in advance.

God Bless!


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Mark

 2005/3/18 21:53Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Sin or not? I need some feedback please

Let he who is without sin post the first response...

(uh,...I mean the second response...)

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/3/18 23:10Profile









 Re: Sin or not? I need some feedback please

Firstly let me tell you about my blood brother said one time. "I can do anything, because I am under the blood". Now this is taking the grace of God and making it loose in your life. It depends on the atitude, that is what is important. The motive must be right otherwise he will be judged if he is a true believer.

Now many people struggle today and we do struggle with issues only because we lack knowledge to escape it and be set free.

God's ways is not always aligned with the word of God, let me explain it this way. God is not always cut and dry as we like for Him to be when we read things in His word. We don't want Him to be long suffering, we don't want His mercy to be forever, we want to see the hand of God fall on everyone whom we have no patience for.

One minister said, "How long is long suffering? as long as you have to suffer!" there is some truth in that.

As long as the brother is repenting and YOU praying for him there will be results, perhaps he has weak faith which most likely he does, then it says to "comfort the feeble minded". You see this man is God's project not yours, even if he is playing around, that will end in time. Your place is to stand for righteousness, NOT STANDARDS, big difference.

Righteousness meaning that you don't give into his reasoning, but you stand for the truth of God's word thru prayer, remember a word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pitchers of silver. So the whole gig is with you not with your brother. It is how you are handling God's investment, if you love him than ask the Father how you are to deal with him if you want to thrash him with legalistic foolishness, then I highly recommend you leave him alone and let God deal with him.

Karl

 2005/3/19 0:19
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Re: The intents of the heart

Quote:
I have a dear brother in my church who seems to think that if someone has a serious problem in their life, like... let's say a porno addiction, or maybe a drinking problem, etc...;that as long as you are truly trying to do right, then you are "ok" and will make it should the Lord return.



My first question is to you. How do you define a “serious problem”? Sin is sin bondage is bondage. I suppose that from the context, you mean that the sin is habitual; and that is indeed a serious problem. On that note I want to pick this up again.

Quote:
Now this is taking the grace of God and making it loose in your life. It depends on the atitude, that is what is important. The motive must be right otherwise he will be judged if he is a true believer.

Righteousness meaning that you don't give into his reasoning, but you stand for the truth of God's word thru prayer, remember a word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pitchers of silver. So the whole gig is with you not with your brother. It is how you are handling God's investment, if you love him than ask the Father how you are to deal with him if you want to thrash him with legalistic foolishness, then I highly recommend you leave him alone and let God deal with him.



This is it in a nutshell. You said

Quote:
He seems to think that as long as someone is sincere with God, and asks forgiveness everyday, and is truly trying to get victory in this particular area...then they won't go to hell.



I have to agree with your brother on this note but not entirely. This doctrine is dangerous in the hands of the inexperienced and immature in Christ. I would never recommend teaching that to anyone even though it has an element of truth to it. Even so, this sprang to mind when you said that.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

“The thoughts and intents of the heart” cannot be forged. You can fool all of the people (including yourself) all of the time but you can never fool God.

1 Samuel 16:7But the Lord said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or his stature, because I have rejected him. Man does not see what the Lord sees, for man sees what is visible, but the Lord sees the heart."

You see a man with a porno addiction, God may see a man who is trying. You see someone who appears righteous outwardly but the Lord:

Mathew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

God only, can truly discern the intents of the heart. We would do well to leave the judgment to Him, this statement is particularly directed at the brother in your church and to me. This is a lesson I can never get enough of it seems…

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/3/19 2:08Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth [u]and forsaketh[/u] them shall have mercy. (Pro 28:13 KJV)


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Ron Bailey

 2005/3/19 5:23Profile
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Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re:

From my own personal experience:
three years ago, when I did not know about living a surrendered life, I was living in habitual sin. I was doing some things that though I knew they were wrong, I continued to do them, thinking one day I would give them up- but that I was "ok" because I was a "christian" (had said the prayer,went to church, etc...)

What God showed me was that I was in control of my life, not God. I was choosing to continue in my disobedience.

He showed me there is a difference between "sin" (oops I just yelled at the kids, oops, I just treated that lady very unkindly, oops, I just lied to my friend) than to continue to commit "premeditated" sin.

If you are doing something- let's say dating someone you know is not right for you, or you are continuing to frequent places that you know are not right to go- If you continue and have no immediate plans of changing but say to yourself (and God) well I want to do this right now, maybe later I will do the right thing) That is WRONG and the Lord does not make allowances. That is YOU being on the throne and not God.

I was once addicted to bodybuilding/fat loss drugs and to going to the gym everyday. I was addicted to my self-image.

I was choosing to coninue in that for quite a while because I wanted to please myself more than I wanted to please God. Yet i thought I was "safe"- because I didn't know the truth at the time. That you can't live a christian life and be UNSURRENDERED.

I finally let the Lord speak to my heart on these things, repented and had a great deal of FEAR OF THE LORD and let Him do a work in me which resulted in a gradual laying down of all those things.

It is one thing to say :i will not ever do that again and mean it- and still end up doing it again.

but it is another thing to say "yes, i know this is wrong but I want to continue in it for awhile, because "God is full of grace" and I am saved anyway.

Being a Christian means that you have surrendered every area of your life over to God and he is the king over everything.

Many "christians" are still claiming to be His, but still running their own lives, or certain areas of it. He is either LORD of ALL, or not Lord AT ALL.

In my experience, there is a difference between pre- meditated sin (and continual) and the occasional "oops" I didn't mean to do that.

In Him, Chanin


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Chanin

 2005/3/19 8:58Profile
Sentry
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Joined: 2004/2/5
Posts: 119
West Monroe, Louisiana

 Re:

I truly hope that my original statement didn't sound like I was trying to be judgemental. I'm not; I'm a very compassionate person. I myself have come out of serious alcohol and drug addictions. I just care about these people. I don't want anyone to go to hell, thinking everything was fine, when in reality, it was not.

There seems to be a fine line here. One that at times, is hard to address. One particular person I'm worried about is a dear friend in our Church. He’s there on Sunday mornings and night, and on Wednesday’s, teaches a class of young boys. But he struggles with an addiction. He has not been upfront with me or anyone about this. I only know because his wife shares with my wife. She continues to ask us to pray.
I have not confronted him with it, in fear of his anger at his wife.

Again, I know that we all are in need of a savior, I certainly am...and I have many areas of my life that need serious improvement. I just know when I was drinking during the week and part of the worship team on Sunday, it was a devilish nightmare, that gripped me for years.

I am just not convinced that I would have gone to Heaven, if the Lord would have returned. Even though I wept much at the altar about my drinking. It was only when I surrendered that area of my life totally, that I was able to get complete victory.

These comments are such a blessing...thanks so very much.



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Mark

 2005/3/19 9:29Profile
AgesofWar
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Joined: 2003/5/24
Posts: 138
Chicago IL USA

 Re:

Quote:
He’s there on Sunday mornings and night, and on Wednesday’s, teaches a class of young boys. But he struggles with an addiction. He has not been upfront with me or anyone about this. I only know because his wife shares with my wife. She continues to ask us to pray.



I don't know what this man's addiction is, however if that addiction will in anyway put in jepordy those young boys in anyway, then you need to either tell someone who will act or do so yourself.

How many times have people been silent when they should of spoke up.

If however this addiction does not harm others you should Pray for the man and GOD will show you the right time to speak if at all.

In Love Michael


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Michael

 2005/3/19 10:08Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Sin and sins

1Jo 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life--to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
1Jo 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

Interesting, musing on this yesterday...
Some commentary:

[b]1Jo 5:16 -
If any man see[/b] (ean tis idēi). Third-class condition with ean and second aorist active subjunctive of eidon (horaō).

[b]Sinning a sin[/b] (hamartanonta hamartian). Present active predicate (supplementary) participle agreeing with adelphon and with cognate accusative hamartian.

[b]Not unto death[/b]
(mē pros thanaton). Repeated again with hamartanousin and in contrast with hamartia pros thanaton (sin unto death). Most sins are not mortal sins, but clearly John conceives of a sin that is deadly enough to be called “unto death.” This distinction is common in the rabbinic writings and in Num_18:22 the lxx has labein hamartian thanatēphoron “to incur a death-bearing sin” as many crimes then and now bear the death penalty. There is a distinction in Heb_10:26 between sinning wilfully after full knowledge and sins of ignorance (Heb_5:2). Jesus spoke of the unpardonable sin (Mar_3:29; Mat_12:32; Luk_12:10), which was attributing to the devil the manifest work of the Holy Spirit. It is possible that John has this idea in mind when he applies it to those who reject Jesus Christ as God’s Son and set themselves up as antichrists.

[b]Concerning this[/b] (peri ekeinēs). This sin unto death.

[b]That he should make request[/b] (hina erōtēsēi). Sub-final use of hina with the first aorist active subjunctive of erōtaō, used here as in Joh_17:15, Joh_17:20 (and often) for request rather than for question. John does not forbid praying for such cases; he simply does not command prayer for them. He leaves them to God.

Robertson's Word Pictures

Would only add and draw out the aforementioned verses:

Heb 10:24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
Heb 10:25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
Heb 10:26 [b] For if we go on sinning deliberately[/b] after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 [b] but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries[/b].
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 [b]How much worse[/b] punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has [b]spurned the Son of God[/b], and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and [b]has outraged the Spirit of grace[/b]?
Heb 10:30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "[b]The Lord will judge his people[/b]."
Heb 10:31 [b]It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God[/b].

As well as:

Heb 5:1 For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.
Heb 5:2 He can deal [b]gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness[/b].
Heb 5:3 Because of this he is obligated to offer sacrifice for his own sins just as he does for those of the people.
Heb 5:4 And [b]no one takes this honor for himself[/b], but only when called by God, just as Aaron was. (emphesis on principles)

Hard to not carry all these through to their conclusions. Some good insight from everyone here and maybe it's in dividing this up a bit:

Quote:
that as long as you are truly trying to do right,...as long as someone is sincere with God...asks forgiveness everyday, and is truly trying to get victory


Sounds good so far...
Quote:
then you are "ok"


Drifting...
Quote:
and will make it should the Lord return...then they won't go to hell


That's where I would agree with your comment:
Quote:
I'm not sure I agree


Seems the reasoning is the problem. Combining the end results with the remedy, better to leave the end out altogether if it isn't going to drive one to forsake as Ron quoted there.

Rom 6:1 [b]What shall we say then?[/b] Shall we [b]continue[/b] in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are [b]dead to sin[/b], live any longer therein?

A bit of council given to myself that lodged itself firmly in this regard toward forsaking sin:

[i]You [u]can[/u] and you [u]must[/u][/i]. (Thanks Ron!)

Mat 5:29 So if your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into hell.

Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into hell."

Have to get at the roots before the results... And that's where this comes full circle back to the second reply...
Quote:
Let he who is without sin post the first response...

, so we can apply this to ourselves...

Back to the gardening.


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Mike Balog

 2005/3/19 10:12Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: The fine line

Hey Sentry,

Being so short winded, I was surprised you were able to get this response in so quickly before I had finsihed :-P

Quote:
I just know when I was drinking during the week and part of the worship team on Sunday, it was a devilish nightmare, that gripped me for years.

Quote:
I am just not convinced that I would have gone to Heaven, if the Lord would have returned. Even though I wept much at the altar about my drinking. It was only when I surrendered that area of my life totally, that I was able to get complete victory.


Well summed up.
A nightmare indeed, my experience as well (more on the drug side)... A mighty battle it was, at the time it made me wonder about "[i] The spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak.[/i]" for awhile, but had it misconstrued. Ultimately ended up crying "Uncle!" and threw up the white flag... it was spirtually exhausting. Thank God.


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Mike Balog

 2005/3/19 10:29Profile





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