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Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re: continuing...

Let's face it, we are reluctant to ask God for healing because we don't like feeling like the little child who asks for something and then is told "No."

How often have I heard the prayer for healing end with, "if it is your will." In other words, when there is no healing the prayer has a back door of escape.

As a former Calvinist, I recognize that idea that since we are so totally depraved we don't really deserve anything good anyway, so it is probably just an insult to ask God for something. Plus He might be in a bad mood.

I can't go there any more, I just don't believe that comports with the character of the God I have come to both love and trust. I can't conceive of someone asking God for healing and getting a response of "Nah, not you..."

My mother, living through the frailties of old age and declining physical strength, was one who deeply loved and trusted God. She took the passage that the Spirit will quicken our mortal bodies and believed that the healing influence of the Holy Spirit would tend to optimize her health. Whenever she was at a meeting where there was a call to come forward for healing, she would go.

When she died at age 94, it was from a fall where she cracked her head on the cement in a restaurant parking lot. Right after church...

But she was healthy, not on significant medications, alert and engaging right up to that point.

Living in personal humility is most pleasing to God. I will continue to ask God for healing for myself and others, regardless of what my eyes see on the other side. I do like the terse passage in James- "You don't receive because you do not ask."

Healing is good, it is from God, so much so that it is one of His names, Jehovah Raphah. (I Am the God Who heals you.)


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Tom Cameron

 2013/7/19 11:48Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

I have read all of these posts very carefully and there are 2 things that come to mind and it causes me to reflect on something in my past.

If we are praying for God to heal us and he doesn't then what does that mean?

If someone gives us all kinds of scriptures to show that it is God's Will to heal and we stand on those verses to ask God to heal us and it doesn't happen then what does that mean?

I have seen some Christians get frustrated and start telling their fellow Christian that they are not believing or they don't have enough faith. Almost as if they are pointing a finger at the person and it happens in the word of faith - name it and claim crowd. Is it right to make that charge or off base?


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John

 2013/7/19 12:11Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7469
Mississippi

 Re:

I think a person should exercise extreme caution in sharing your views on this subject.

One does not read in any list of sins that if a person dies from an illness it is because he sinned or is not holy.

Paul wrote Timothy in 1Timothy 5:23: "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." Here Paul refers to his infirmities that occurred with some regularity. If ISA 53 had been applicable I am sure he would have challenged him on this issue, but Paul obviously did not equate Timothy's infirmity with Jesus sacrificial death on the cross.

Personally, we depend on divine healing for our bodies. We rarely go to doctors...God has blessed us a lot but he still has not protected us from the ravages of ageing. God also does say "no" to our requests at times. Like Natalie's husband, our daughter died of a glioblastoma. Unlike Natalie, Regina did not leave behind a lot of children - she left behind a husband and two little ones. Many people prayed for Regina, she was anointed with oil but she still died. But you know what? She died without any pain; there were no drugs in her body when she died. God was VERY good, extremely GOOD - she did not suffer at all! Awesome! Even in times of infirmities God will show himself - if you submit to His will, even when he allows infirmities.

God is good...


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Sandra Miller

 2013/7/19 12:24Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5375
NC, USA

 Re:

Deadn--

I certainly empathize with your frustration over this topic. I tend to swing back on the forth on the issue, from the end that God never puts sickness on anybody to the end that all sickness is from God because ultimately God is sovereign.

My "gut" belief based on the whole of scripture is that God does not necessarily put sickness on people, either it is directly from the Enemy or a result of our fallen world.

I think we must be satisfied that we can't really know why God heals sometimes and sometimes he doesn't... it is one of those mysteries. It must have something to do with faith, the Bible seems clear on this, but not everything. People with a lot of faith or whose loved ones have a lot of faith sometimes get sick and die.

I agree 100% with Sidewalk that throwing in the phrase "if it be Your will" at the end of a prayer for healing zaps all power out of the prayer. When children ask their loving parents for something to eat, they don't throw in "if it be your will" at the end. That would sound a tad weird. And a loving parent would be mortified if they found a stash of hoarded food in their young child's closet, as if they were fearful they would not be fed. A good parent wants to give good things to their children. And I think it is safe to say that God is the BEST parent. To suggest that God puts cancer on someone to "teach them a lesson" or to teach their spouse or family a lesson is something I cannot and will not accept. The devil might do it, and sometimes God chooses not to directly intervene, but God can work in the situation. This is not the same as saying that God causes it or refuses to prevent it. I believe it may be possible that He is unable to prevent it in some situations; however that is a theologically deep discussion and likely would not be fruitful.


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Todd

 2013/7/19 14:26Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I read an old book written by a doctor that stated if we followed the Hebrew dietary laws our bodies would detox 3 or 4 times a year and medically he listed a whole bunch of benefits that would come to us...I'll try to find it and maybe post the author and book title. I think the processed foods we eat don't do us any good either. I think the fact that we can get sick by the working of our conscience and probably at times the devil, I know David was afflicted by the Lord that he might seek after Him, but all in all it really is a tough subject and one where I am not qualified to really teach on outside of my own experiences and limited understanding.


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D.Miller

 2013/7/19 15:25Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

Let me share scenario here with my wife. She underwent double lumbar disc fusion 7/1 and 7/3. Spent 7 days in the hospital and began taking tramadol and hydrocodone for the pain. Dr. Says she needs to be active and walk for her healing. She is doing very good for being 2.5 weeks post op. Even the doctor thought she was a month post op. He says because she is young (37), fit and skinny her activity will heal her faster. Her only issue is her bowels.

I see this and I ask inside - God, should she have had this back problem in the first place? Is her healing after the surgery your doing or just genetics and following doctors orders? Is her bowel issue a devil's lair or simply the drug she is using?

A person told me to 'claim her healing' and I just rolled my eyes inside. My thought is, maybe she should have been healed before surgery so we didn't need surgery. Yet she is healing very well to everyone's surprise so may this is the Healing hand of God?

Progressive healing, I suppose is a mystery to me. God or natural?


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John

 2013/7/19 22:15Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: Speaking honestly

Healing is a mystery to me...I laid in a sick bed for 2 years, weight loss with 24/7 incredible pain..The doctors couldn't figure it out. I honestly figured it was time to go and be with the Lord..Stopped praying for healing...I know a lot of people were praying for me though so when the Lord delivered me last year from certain death and healed me supernaturally the day after some tests in the hospital, it came as a real surprise to me, and to be honest I didn't have the faith to believe God would heal me, I just wanted the pain gone, even if that meant checking out of this life. So I fully understand what you are saying DEADn, there is so much of God and His ways that are beyond me, I guess I've stopped trying to figure it all out.


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D.Miller

 2013/7/19 23:01Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re:

Quote:
ginnyrose wrote:
I think a person should exercise extreme caution in sharing your views on this subject.


I agree with ginny here. I believe in healing and I believe that healing is the children’s bread but there is no blanket statement about healing that is for each and every one of us b/c not every person is in the same place spiritually and in their faith (and that includes the person doing the praying as well as the one needing prayer).

HERE IS A STORY... I make no judgments; I am just providing the events as I saw them being part of this church. Back in 2005, I used to go to church with two ladies and one became very sick, debilitatingly sick and we prayed and prayed for her for way OVER a year. It's like the church got tired of praying for her healing and I don’t know the exact words but the sick lady told me that the other lady (the head prayer warrior of the church), essentially told her that she didn't have enough faith to get healed and that SHE should pray for more faith. I'm sure somewhere in this woman's mind, she thought she was doing the right thing telling her this.

Well, this totally devastated this young-in-the-faith 50 yr old woman, she never asked for prayer again, thought her sickness was all her fault. It was very sad to watch how that one statement has stunted this woman’s growth in the Lord. I still see her every once in a while, she goes to church with her husband but nothing more.

Luke 17:2 ~ It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2013/7/19 23:11Profile
romanchog
Member



Joined: 2011/10/27
Posts: 326


 Re:

ALL healing is from God, even when the doctors have a hand in it. If God did not permit it, even their intervention would not work.

I used to believe in "name it and claim it." When my mother-in-law was diagnosed with cancer twelve years ago, I fasted and prayed and claimed all of the scriptures. I believed with all my heart that God would heal her. When she died I believed He would raise her. Neither of these things happened. It made me wonder what was wrong with my faith, which is the problem with the name it and claim it idea.

After many other things that my family endured, I learned to trust God and His ways, and to believe that even when He says "No" it is because He is good and He knows what is best, even if I and others feel like we are suffering. I learned that it is not always His will to free us from the suffering and is in fact very biblical for Him to leave us in the suffering so we can learn to be more like Christ. Note that I am not saying that He is the one who causes suffering.

When my husband was diagnosed with cancer, I believed with all my being that God would heal Him. I thought that this was the way that God was going to glorify Himself through this situation. So many were praying, my children were also believing in it. He was anointed with oil. We prayed for him unceasingly. Yet he got worse and worse. Unlike ginnyrose's daughter, he was in excruciating pain and had to take horrible narcotic medication just so that he could tolerate the pain (even with that the pain did not go away, it only got to a level that he could take it). The last four days of his life, he had trouble breathing so that I despaired and asked God to either heal him or take him.

I never stopped praying for him. I prayed the scriptures, as we are told to do. However, I always prayed "if this is your will." I had learned that even if something looks to me like it should be His will, I know nothing of the plans of God and His ways are higher than mine. Whatever God's choice, it would be good.

I knew that with a touch of His hand, my husband's pain and cancer would be gone. Yet God chose not to do this. Was it because I said, "thy will be done"? Would my heart of submission to His will really make God not answer my prayer? That seems to me an awful, as well as an unscriptural, thing to say but it is what is suggested by those who say this is not praying in faith. Many other great men of God have suffered and died despite much prayer (Denny Kenanston and Bob Jennings are two recent examples).

I know that God prepared me to accept His decision. And I know that regardless of how much pain it brings and how little I understand His decision to allow my husband to suffer so much and to let me have this pain, it does not take away the fact that God is good, even if I don't understand Him.

Why does God heal some and not others? What a wonderful testimony from Sidewalk of someone who never was ill! But that is a grace bestowed to his mother by God, and just because everyone does not live without illness does not mean that we are to judge them for supposed lack of faith.

The bottom line is that praying for healing is like praying for anything else. Yes, God is the God Who Heals, but it does not mean He heals everyone, or else no one would die. Christ told us to pray and ask and believe. He also taught to say, "Nevertheless, not my will but Yours be done." That is what God is seeking from us: totally submitted hearts, which also means hearts that pray.

As to your wife Deadn: rejoice in God's healing of Your wife. Continue to pray for her complete healing and that this never returns again. Seek to glorify Him in this. Remember, that all good gifts come from the Father.

In Christ's love,
Natalie

[edited to clarify]


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Natalie

 2013/7/19 23:14Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re: Natalie, thank you! And some other thoughts.

Natalie you have so eloquently brought a wonderful perspective to this conversation. You have paid a dear price for the faith you have, and I for one appreciate that you have shared it here.

Because the bottom line here is not trying to figure out formulas, or blame God for inconsistancies. It is the sharing of our own sometimes painful stories that build faith in ourselves and others.

That God must endure watching His beloved yet corrupted creation grind its way to redemption is a burden He carries. And he knows the pain of every person who lives before Him.

Jesus said, "Jerusalem, how often I wanted to gather you as a hen gathers her chicks- but you would not!"

I can't help but think that He grieves over our human suffering just as much or more than we do. Is it fair to think that if he did not hold to the hope of our redemption His own grief would be too much for Him to bear?



My handicapped daughter, 34 years old, is mentally around 12. But she and I attend a local church service here in the San Diego area designed specifically for mentally and physically challenged adults. I look around, and while it is grievous to see the chains that restrict the minds and bodies of these people, I also see an incredible outpouring of God's love- some from those with a wonderful gift of ministry, but some is just the way these "kids" minister love to one another!

The stories could melt a heart of iron. Many have conditions from birth, some from accidents- a couple men were run over by cars when they were toddlers! Some are bound by demons with no ability to understand or engage in spiritual warfare. They have the same sin problems, with rude and selfish behavior that they don't hide very well.

In the service they have very short attention spans, most all of them watching the door in the back to see if anyone is coming in. They wander about the church sanctuary, up on the stage to lead the singing- then they just stop and stare at the audience! Nearly every week a crude conga line forms during the worship time, they love to be active and moving.

This is no ordinary service!

Would that a sweet hand of healing might pass through and clear out all the maladies and calamitous misfortune! But that is not to be. For me, I just tell God I am so glad to be there, that He might use me for a moment, an issue, a soul to touch with His love, to be a part of whatever good He is doing in there!

Perhaps the larger perspective on healing is the hope of the coming Kingdom of God. We see a little healing here, a story of someone being healed a couple states away, stories of the great healings in the tent meetings of the '50's and '60's. We see "through a glass darkly" as we deal with the fact that we possess only a measure of the Spirit of God, not yet the fullness.

Perhaps one day we will be carried in the Spirit to see how prayers and healing worked out in our lives, along with a host of other events shaped by the way we either prayed or did not pray.

Which is why I will push myself to stay in prayer as much as I can, trusting that the sweet aroma of that will be useful to God.


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2013/7/20 1:52Profile





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